Digital Webbing Forums - We are not Wal-Mart!

01-29-2007, 12:34 PM

Cat

Evil Ginger Child

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 4,579

We are not Wal-Mart!

a friend sent me this, it was posted on craigslist.
all you artsy folks would do well to read it:

Quote:

Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.

But what they’re NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.

To those who are “seeking artists”, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?

More than likely, you don’t know any. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting on craigslist to find them.

And this is not really a surprise.

In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.

So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?

Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)

Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?

If you answered “yes” to ANY of the above, you’re obviously insane. If you answered “no”, then kudos to you for living in the real world.

But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?

Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.

A few things you need to know;

1. It is not a “great opportunity” for an artist to have his work seen on your car/’zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a “great opportunity” for YOU to have their work there.

2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it’s one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their “portfolio”. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It’s not compensation. It’s their right, and it’s a given.

4. Stop thinking that you’re giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.

5. Students DO need “experience”. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the “experience” they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother’s house when they were seventeen?

If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to “submit work for consideration”. They may even be posing as some sort of “contest”. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the “contest”, or be “chosen” for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or “spec”, work. It’s risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.

So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are “spec” gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.

And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you’re accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.

Now this is not to say creative types should be paid an arm and a leg (unless you got an arm and a leg to pay

) but we should be fairly compensated like anyone else.

Last edited by Cat : 01-29-2007 at 01:57 PM.

01-29-2007, 12:49 PM

Buckyrig

Ella Guru East St. Louis

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Steve Buscemi's Couch

Posts: 9,028

Quote:

2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

I do have a slight problem with the reasoning on 2. Those neurosurgeons mentioned earlier did in fact work for free when they started.

Unpaid internship is fairly common in many industries. Now...you're not interning for "some guy" in those cases. So, I'm not going to say this is the same thing. But there is something to be said for paying your dues.

I have no problem with people asking for payment, but people need to be realistic about their skill when trying to price themselves. Just because some sucker once paid you $100/page doesn't mean your work is worth that much, it means that person thought it was. (And conversely, just because you think your script is a masterpiece means only that you think it's a masterpiece.)

I usually keep somewhat quiet on this one, but the big problem is that people on both sides are not honest with themselves about their skill level. And it's created a wild west of absurd agreements and demands from all parties.

People need to be more opportunistic and less concerned with the money. If an artist runs across a special script (very rare, regardless of the chest thumping that goes on), it would seem foolish to pass over a couple of dollars per page. If a writer runs into that perfect artist for his script, he too would be foolish to pass over a few dollars per page.

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01-29-2007, 12:57 PM

Cat

Evil Ginger Child

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 4,579

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckyrig

Unpaid internship is fairly common in many industries. Now...you're not interning for "some guy" in those cases. So, I'm not going to say this is the same thing. But there is something to be said for paying your dues.

Usually an intership is with a COMPANY not some joe blow that says he has a book or a job for you. But paying your dues is a must but you still should not be taken advantage of. It is possible to pay and be paid for the fair amount.

Quote:

I have no problem with people asking for payment, but people need to be realistic about their skill when trying to price themselves. Just because some sucker once paid you $100/page doesn't mean your work is worth that much, it means that person thought it was. (And conversely, just because you think your script is a masterpiece means only that you think it's a masterpiece.)

that is what I said at the bottom

Quote:

I usually keep somewhat quiet on this one, but the big problem is that people on both sides are not honest with themselves about their skill level. And it's created a wild west of absurd agreements and demands from all parties.

yes..reality seems to take a back seat in some cases. But the taking advantage seems to be in the front seat and driving to many times to count.

Quote:

People need to be more opportunistic and less concerned with the money. If an artist runs across a special script (very rare, regardless of the chest thumping that goes on), it would seem foolish to pass over a couple of dollars per page. If a writer runs into that perfect artist for his script, he too would be foolish to pass over a few dollars per page.

tell that to the landlord or the electric company...If you can afford to take the risk take it or find a backer who can...but don't cheat yourself. If it is really a few dollars then don't worry about it..but if it is more like a weeks worth of groceries then you have to just say no.

01-29-2007, 01:09 PM	#4
wisper Isreal/Iran October 2008 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Send Money. Maryland 20910 ,U.S.A. Posts: 3,558	have you seen some the the quality artwork on craigslist? I hit a few up and they replyed " oh, i can do comics" Im still in school but I can do comics"...but have no interest in the trade...just a job.

01-29-2007, 01:11 PM	#5
Cat Evil Ginger Child Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 4,579	No I havn't looked..I have never been to craigs list.

01-29-2007, 01:13 PM	#6
Phatman Cat Scratch Fever Redwood Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Drenchville, Soggyton Posts: 3,490	Great post Cat.

01-29-2007, 01:14 PM

Buckyrig

Ella Guru East St. Louis

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Steve Buscemi's Couch

Posts: 9,028

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat

Usually an intership is with a COMPANY not some joe blow that says he has a book or a job for you.

Hence my "some guy" comment.

I'm just saying the idea of working with little to no pay at the beginning is not as offensive or unprofessional as people like to think. I've written more free scripts for artists than I can remember. Now, it's not the same committment, but I've taken the shots.

Fact is, I think everyone is nuts. A lot of people are up their asses about their own greatness on both sides.

And remember, you actually are an extremely good artist. A lot of people draw like rank amateurs, but imagine they are drawing at your level when they look at their work. It's the delusional people creating the problem. If things were somehow sifted down to the cream, I think there would be less disagreement about this topic.

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01-29-2007, 01:18 PM	#8
Justice4me Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 47	Very funny but true post Cat. I usually get asked to do something while at a place where artwork is everywhere. I usually just point to all the stuff on the walls or in the shelves for sale and ask them, "do you think this was all done for free?", as I point around. Usually stop the questions right there. Last edited by Justice4me : 01-29-2007 at 01:20 PM.

01-29-2007, 01:30 PM

wisper

Isreal/Iran October 2008

Join Date: Feb 2004

Location: Send Money. Maryland 20910 ,U.S.A.

Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat

No I havn't looked..I have never been to craigs list.

well Ms. katgirl maybe you should...reflect on your jobs before you networked here on DW.
http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/ats/269993955.html

01-29-2007, 01:49 PM

#10

Cat

Evil Ginger Child

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 4,579

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisper

well Ms. katgirl maybe you should...reflect on your jobs before you networked here on DW.
http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/ats/269993955.html

you lost me.. I am not looking for jobs on craig's list..I was just reposting somthing a friend had sent me. These are not my words I just thought it was a clever post. I could relate to it and share some of the same views.

I have taken jobs for the "exposure" and the pay is for shit, but there was pay..and it got my name spread around the world in one shot. At the time the it was the exposure that I needed more..now that is not to say I didn't feel a little sick to my stomach when I had to mail off the work knowing I wasn't getting paid nearly enough for my time and effort..not to mention I can go on ebay and see others making 10-100 times the amount of money i made off my work. But like I said at the time it was the right choice. It opened some doors that I would not have had the opprotunity to open otherwise. Dues must be paid but you don't have to be taken advantage of to do it.

01-29-2007, 01:57 PM

#11

wisper

Isreal/Iran October 2008

Join Date: Feb 2004

Location: Send Money. Maryland 20910 ,U.S.A.

Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat

the blade cuts both ways...I understand your post. but then you stated you have never been to craigslist...so i posted that reflect on your jobs b4 you came to DW. I posted an advert on an art show...(networking) in your town...from craigslist..that's all....art only comes from time...some think it as gift...not applied talent...

01-29-2007, 02:06 PM	#12
devildog Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 120	Part of the problem...especially for graphic designers, is that when the internet bust occurred, all the trade schools that taught programming suddenly changed their direction and started pumping out graphic artists...unfortunately that field had also taken a hit from the internet bust. So now the market is full of graphic designers some skilled (with art background) many not so skilled (people that jumped on the bandwagon). Schools are still pumping out graphic designers and advertising that it's a lucrative field, meanwhile the wages are being pushed down bc of the glut of people in the industry. More often than not, companies will choose cheap labor over skill, especially when the people doing the hiring don't have a good eye to differentiate between a "good" designer and a "bad" one. This has been my experience over the last 12 yrs. But I'm not bitter

01-29-2007, 02:18 PM	#13
D.J. Coffman Is a Juggernaut Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 1,643	There is TONS of work out there in smaller markets or towns, for graphic artists... but MEH.....

01-29-2007, 02:27 PM	#14
Scott Story www.johnnysaturn.com Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,218	On crappy thing about the internet, for all its good, is that it encourages artists to compete for lower and lower wages on sites like Elance. It really pulls the rug out on many freelancers. Blah. __________________ Johnny Saturn Website \| Scott Story Portfolio \| Myspace Our Book

01-29-2007, 02:29 PM

#15

mythic

Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: a little to the right

Posts: 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildog

Part of the problem...especially for graphic designers, is that when the internet bust occurred, all the trade schools that taught programming suddenly changed their direction and started pumping out graphic artists...unfortunately that field had also taken a hit from the internet bust. So now the market is full of graphic designers some skilled (with art background) many not so skilled (people that jumped on the bandwagon). Schools are still pumping out graphic designers and advertising that it's a lucrative field, meanwhile the wages are being pushed down bc of the glut of people in the industry. More often than not, companies will choose cheap labor over skill, especially when the people doing the hiring don't have a good eye to differentiate between a "good" designer and a "bad" one. This has been my experience over the last 12 yrs. But I'm not bitter

Totally agree - kids coming out of school bill themselves as art directors - I worked five years before I got that title - and it seems anybody with a computer is now a designer - for an industry (advertising/graphic design) that is all about communication we do a really crappy job of communicating the value of our work as a whole.

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