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Baron Spider
07-24-2006, 10:10 PM
i was thinking of submitting a comic to them and was wondering if anyone has any experience working with them.
thanx

Jason Powell
07-24-2006, 11:17 PM
i was thinking of submitting a comic to them and was wondering if anyone has any experience working with them.
thanx

I have known Sean (the owner) for years now and he is doing one of my projects (if it gets done ;) ) so I think I can tell you best. Sean offers a fair deal. Not the best in the industry, not the worst (far from it). He has always proven to be stand up in most cases, which says a lot. Understand, you'll get what you put in to the project (not saying money per say, I have lost thousands, but I have learned a lot). I think, for an Indy it is great place to start and you may decide to stay.

-SIN-
GATOR

powerbomb1411
10-01-2008, 03:27 AM
It's been two years. They're still around. Heard good things about them. I just learned about them a couple weeks ago. Heard of them before that, but nothing more then a company name that wasn't who I was looking for.

Anyone know what they're like now?

maverick
10-01-2008, 09:21 AM
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they don't offer a creator owned agreement.

Mwynn
10-01-2008, 09:26 AM
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they don't offer a creator owned agreement.
http://www.arcanacomics.com/submission.php

maverick
10-01-2008, 10:39 AM
http://www.arcanacomics.com/submission.php

doesn't say anything about the agreement at this link ....

Mwynn
10-01-2008, 10:44 AM
doesn't say anything about the agreement at this link ....
Of course not that agreement would be private. All they publish is creator owned books.

maverick
10-01-2008, 11:39 AM
Do they? I'm saying that I think maybe they don't.

If the agreement is not creator owned, then they would not be publishing creator owned books now would they?

The page you link to says they will help "develop and establish your intellectual property" -- no verbage about retaining your rights to said property.

Having a character/comic you created published does not always mean it will be a creator owned deal.

Mwynn
10-01-2008, 11:51 AM
Do they? I'm saying that I think maybe they don't.

If the agreement is not creator owned, then they would not be publishing creator owned books now would they?

The page you link to says they will help "develop and establish your intellectual property" -- no verbage about retaining your rights to said property.

Having a character/comic you created published does not always mean it will be a creator owned deal.
It is a creator owned deal.

Calloway
10-01-2008, 11:55 AM
Fact is you don't know for sure do you Marv? :yawn:

The ONLY way to know is to contact Sean. Unless someone here's been published, in which case Jason can answer the question.

Personally I can't see why it wouldn't be but you never know.

Mwynn
10-01-2008, 11:57 AM
Fact is you don't know for sure do you Marv? :yawn:

The ONLY way to know is to contact Sean. Unless someone here's been published, in which case Jason can answer the question.

Personally I can't see why it wouldn't be but you never know.
As posted above it is a Creator Owned Deal.

maverick
10-01-2008, 12:04 PM
http://www.squidworks.com/forums/index.php?topic=343.msg2524#msg2524

jimmybott
10-01-2008, 12:05 PM
LOL @ Mwynn. You just keep getting ignored huh :). Shadowflame was published through Arcana right?

I was under the impression that Arcana, like many other indy companies at the moment, want a stake in the ownership for publishing the title. Something like Arcana owns 50% of the property and it's licences from "10 years from last publication" or something like that.

This is becoming more common with indy publishers at the moment. Some have developed strong ties with media companies to sell the rights. They assume they'll make little to nothing on the sales of the book but split the money from media rights with you. I can't really say I blame them, but I would prefer to self publish and completely own my property.

Mwynn
10-01-2008, 12:07 PM
LOL @ Mwynn. You just keep getting ignored huh :). Shadowflame was published through Arcana right?

I was under the impression that Arcana, like many other indy companies at the moment, want a stake in the ownership for publishing the title. Something like Arcana owns 50% of the property and it's licences from "10 years from last publication" or something like that.

This is becoming more common with indy publishers at the moment. Some have developed strong ties with media companies to sell the rights. They assume they'll make little to nothing on the sales of the book but split the money from media rights with you. I can't really say I blame them, but I would prefer to self publish and completely own my property.
I guess i do, thats okay though. Things may have changed with the deal with Platinum. Yet I will leave it at that. I'm not discussing private numbers.

maverick
10-01-2008, 12:09 PM
I see no harm in an indy publisher wanting a stake in the ownership of your property in exchange for publishing the title. They are a business after all. And like jimmy said many have good connections.

maverick
10-01-2008, 12:10 PM
Wha-huh? Arcana is in bed with Platinum now???!????

Calloway
10-01-2008, 01:04 PM
As posted above it is a Creator Owned Deal.

Arcana looks at the 'big picture'. We don't want to just develop a comic book, we want to work with you to create your universe. Editorially you will have full reign while we assist you in whatever way works best to develop the comic book and Arcana looks to develop your property with ancillary revenues in mind. We know this is a tough industry and we will not give up or quit on a project we've started either.

Arcana has invaluable connections in the direct market and have worked extremely hard with retailers ensuring that they are satisfied with our company and our product.

Arcana has an outstanding legal team, talent agency, literary agency and has developed relationships with numerous television and movie studios, as well as video game publishers, and we are a company that can get your product to the forefront.

Arcana works with you to make sure that your product is carefully handled ensuring great promotional opportunities with retailers and an online presence that is outstanding.

Arcana offers one of the best contracts around allowing you to work on your comic book while working with Arcana to gain readership, show profits and to develop and establish your intellectual property.

It may very will let you keep all rights but in so far as I can see there is no "deal" here. It's a submission guideline neither saying they will have control of your property for such and such years or you'll keep all rights.

It's kinda like someone making a deal with you online on a website in which you'd get paid for artwork. He does the whole snake oil routine then you do the pages and get no money. you just never know.

Mwynn
10-01-2008, 01:18 PM
I have known Sean (the owner) for years now and he is doing one of my projects (if it gets done ;) ) so I think I can tell you best. Sean offers a fair deal. Not the best in the industry, not the worst (far from it). He has always proven to be stand up in most cases, which says a lot. Understand, you'll get what you put in to the project (not saying money per say, I have lost thousands, but I have learned a lot). I think, for an Indy it is great place to start and you may decide to stay.

-SIN-
GATOR
What is going on with Yin Yang?

powerbomb1411
10-01-2008, 01:21 PM
Now the link that maverick posted sounds like it contradicts what the submission guidelines say.

Mwynn
10-01-2008, 01:27 PM
Now the link that maverick posted sounds like it contradicts what the submission guidelines say.
The guidlines are from 2005. Things have changed.

maverick
10-01-2008, 01:37 PM
Now the link that maverick posted sounds like it contradicts what the submission guidelines say.

No it doesn't.

Nowhere in the submission guidelines does it outline what kind of deal you may or may not get. The submission guidelines are just that--submission guidelines. My hunch is that if they like your submission, they will contact you and work on an agreement at that time.

Lee Nordling
10-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Wha-huh? Arcana is in bed with Platinum now???!????
It's no secret that Sean is a Platinum Studios employee.

I'll leave it to him and others to define how, if at all, Arcana properties are tied to Platinum, though.

I think the best thing to do is discuss this directly with Sean; you'll get the straight poop, sans poop.

--Lee

SDulaney
10-01-2008, 02:10 PM
I'm in the midst of doing a project for Arcana. As far as I know, Arcana remains a separate business entity from Platinum's print division. (They do share space at cons.) Prior to the project that I'm doing now, which is a company owned book, Sean and I discussed another project that would've been creator owned. They do have that option and I haven't ruled out using Arcana for a creator owned project down the road. Sean's been great to deal with on the current project and if it's a project that he thinks would make a good book for Arcana, I'd say he would explain the details of the creator-owned deal to you. But the main factor would be if it's something he would want going out with the Arcana logo on the cover no mater what his financial stake in the title might be.

tlbowen
10-01-2008, 02:33 PM
I was working on something that fell through but the contract they had on the table wasn't really creator owned. It amounted to them owning 60% of everything. When I initially read the submission guidelines it sounded more like Image but then the contract wasn't like it at all. Like I said, it all fell through so it didn't matter anyway.

D.J. Coffman
10-01-2008, 03:29 PM
Sean actually isn't a Platinum Studios employee, he's a consultant. (well last I knew of in May and throughout my dealings there) - He's probably the only guy bringing in a profit there for them on the book deal side and putting real things on the table

Sean seems like a good guy, and if you have a book you want through Arcana and you want to know the ins and outs, just ask Sean or track him down and he'd probably be more than happy to tell you all about the deals there.

From other people i had talked to inside Platinum and even Sean's old assistant told me, he was looking to sell Arcana's properties to Platinum, but Platinum didn't buy (yet) -- well heck, they don't have money, and I doubt Sean would want to sell for stock, HA... but that raises the question if Arcana has a stake in your I.P. and then Arcana gets sold to Platinum (or someone else, india maybe?) -- then your IP is owned in part by whoever buys them. Just something to keep in mind there.

Jason Powell
10-01-2008, 03:57 PM
What is going on with Yin Yang?

Whoa... I totally missed this. YIN YANG is 100% done, in, and will be published early next year. Why the wait, beats me, but I trust Sean.

I can tell you guys I own YIN YANG 100%. Arcana gets a % of all sales for 4 years after final publication but that is pretty common everywhere. As far as movie/merchandise/ect deals - I have to sign an agreement like Sean does because we are sort of 50/50 partners for 4 years. After that 4 years I am legally able to move it elsewhere if I wish and owe Arcana nothing.

Now, Sean does work for Platinum (he is over publishing and animation - that is old news and has been posted on his site). However Arcana is not owned or has anything to do with them really. If they did sale to someone else though, as mentioned above, after 4 years I can take my product anywhere I want.

There are a lot of ins and outs to contract also, but nothing binding you.

Now... I am sure Arcana has made special deals with others (case by case I guess) but they have always been straight forward about it so I see no real worries.

-Jason

crozonia
10-01-2008, 04:59 PM
It seems like everyone has worked with Sean. I have worked a few joint venture projects with him now, such as ReBoot and soon another big name project. I can vouch for him. Good guy, sometimes way too busy for his own good, but he's a real player in the industry.

Raven
10-01-2008, 05:31 PM
It seems like everyone has worked with Sean. I have worked a few joint venture projects with him now, such as ReBoot and soon another big name project. I can vouch for him. Good guy, sometimes way too busy for his own good, but he's a real player in the industry.

And he is built like a fucking tank. Seriously. One of only a couple guys in ten years in this business I'd trust.

Paul Sanderson
10-01-2008, 06:37 PM
I've spoken at length with Sean, and he's a stand-up guy. I don't know too much about where Arcana stands with Platinum, but I like Sean...he tells it like it is. Arcana will be releasing The Wraith/Shadowflame/Johnny Saturn: Curse of the Cortes Stone, the War of the Independents tie-in myself, Joe Martino and Scott Story worked on.

Mecha
10-01-2008, 08:29 PM
Sean is a great guy, no doubt about it.

But I've had seen two contracts -- recent ones -- from Arcana and they want full ownership of the properties. Not only that, but in the contracts it mentioned they could move those rights to anyone else (Platinum, anyone?).

Oh and here's a blurb from the news release of Platinum hiring Sean:

PLATINUM STUDIOS NABS SEAN OíREILLY
AS PLATINUM STUDIOS COMICS PUBLISHER AND HEAD OF ANIMATION

Deal includes an option to acquire Arcana Studios

DungeonMasterJm
10-01-2008, 09:00 PM
Last week or two I posted about an editor asking about the status of my webcomic The Necropolis Chronicles. It was from Sean. It was a really strange e-mail out of the blue and about 2 sentences long. After my reply he said my comic looked good and I haven't heard anything else since.

Just,... strange.

DM Jim

Calloway
10-02-2008, 01:09 AM
The guidlines are from 2005. Things have changed.


Well you've been wrong so far...so how have things changed all knowing Mwynn?

Artsta
10-02-2008, 01:44 AM
I don't know how it is at Arcana now, but Mario Gully whom i'm sure some of ya'll know started there with his book Ant. He then moved it over to Image Comics with no problem like a year or two later and I'm quite sure with full ownership.

Mecha
10-02-2008, 01:52 AM
That was pretty much 5 years ago.

powerbomb1411
10-02-2008, 02:34 AM
Last week or two I posted about an editor asking about the status of my webcomic The Necropolis Chronicles. It was from Sean. It was a really strange e-mail out of the blue and about 2 sentences long. After my reply he said my comic looked good and I haven't heard anything else since.

Just,... strange.

DM Jim

Similar to my situation. After reading the thread, I am having seconds thoughts about this. Granted Arcana has won awards and has gets to have diamond distribute there work, but with no guarantee on any money you might see back and quite possibly no creator owned rights, kind of makes me wonder if the perks are outweigh self publishing through Ka-Blam and Indyplanet.

Raven
10-02-2008, 10:04 AM
Similar to my situation. After reading the thread, I am having seconds thoughts about this. Granted Arcana has won awards and has gets to have diamond distribute there work, but with no guarantee on any money you might see back and quite possibly no creator owned rights, kind of makes me wonder if the perks are outweigh self publishing through Ka-Blam and Indyplanet.

There is no guarantee of money back anywhere in this industry and we've quite clearly stated creators own the rights to their work, none of us are willing to discuss details the of our contracts, so what exactly is it you want?

You think anyone will publish your work and let you keep all the money yourself, and the rights?

D.J. Coffman
10-02-2008, 10:05 AM
I don't know how it is at Arcana now, but Mario Gully whom i'm sure some of ya'll know started there with his book Ant. He then moved it over to Image Comics with no problem like a year or two later and I'm quite sure with full ownership.





Mario was actually the one who warned me not to get into deals with Sean when he first came to Platinum. That made me really nervous and cautious. He wasn't happy with the Ant deal, but it was an agreement they mutually agreed to. Wasn't the best deal, it wasn't the worst either. I forget the details that were told to me, but I'm almost positive Mario had to buy back some rights to ANT before he could do anything with it. Maybe Mario will chime in here... he lurks!

Mwynn
10-02-2008, 10:09 AM
Sean is a great guy, no doubt about it.

But I've had seen two contracts -- recent ones -- from Arcana and they want full ownership of the properties. Not only that, but in the contracts it mentioned they could move those rights to anyone else (Platinum, anyone?).

Oh and here's a blurb from the news release of Platinum hiring Sean:
Did you see the early contracts from around 2003-2005.

Mwynn
10-02-2008, 10:10 AM
Similar to my situation. After reading the thread, I am having seconds thoughts about this. Granted Arcana has won awards and has gets to have diamond distribute there work, but with no guarantee on any money you might see back and quite possibly no creator owned rights, kind of makes me wonder if the perks are outweigh self publishing through Ka-Blam and Indyplanet.
Self publishing is your best route for complete freedom.

Jorge Vega
10-02-2008, 11:30 AM
Self publishing is your best route for complete freedom.
Self-publishing is being very (http://www.kaeruboy.com/?p=251) good (http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/122270261835456.htm) to (http://www.twofistedpress.com) me (http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/122270356666875.htm).

maverick
10-02-2008, 12:02 PM
How so? In terms of profit, in terms of exposure, or bit of both?

Scribbly
10-02-2008, 12:02 PM
Self-publishing is being very (http://www.kaeruboy.com/?p=251) good (http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/122270261835456.htm) to (http://www.twofistedpress.com) me (http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/122270356666875.htm).
Hi Jorge,
Question: How about your business with Platinum?
That is going all good for you?
Did you have any problems as D.J. did, or all is working OK with you?
Seems that you are doing very well with them.

What is your POV, opinion?
Thanks.

Jorge Vega
10-02-2008, 12:30 PM
How so? In terms of profit, in terms of exposure, or bit of both?
I've got two #1's out right now and I've broken even on my initial print investment in the first week. The books have been extremely well received by readers and reviewers. You can give them a whiff over at the links below. ;)

Question: How about your business with Platinum? That is going all good for you?
Right now, I don't really have anything going on with Platinum. We (Dominic Vivona and I) produced Gunplay for them, they printed it, they paid us for it.

Did you have any problems as D.J. did, or all is working OK with you?
DJ and I had similar/different problems along the way. DJ put out the HBN miniseries and then got offered an ongoing. I put out a stand alone OGN. Two different things, dealt with pretty differently. Not going to get into all the particulars of that because its already been discussed at length. What I will say is, like DJ, I had to wait a long time to get that last check. Once I got it, it paid for my current projects. I can't complain about that.

Seems that you are doing very well with them. What is your POV, opinion?
Not sure how you surmise that I'm doing well or poorly but my POV is this... look at a situation, find out the good and the bad, decide whether or not it smells right to you (every situations different) and act accordingly.

MrGranger
10-02-2008, 03:17 PM
Sean is a great guy.
Sean does work for Platinum.
Arcana will ask for a % of ownership, depending on the deal that YOU bring to the table. The days of the IMAGE-like contracts are over.
Arcana is looking to build itself out of the small, creator co-op that it started as. Nothing wrong with that.

That's it. For specific answers you must email Sean, who is very busy and might not get back to you for a very long time. Best way is to corner him at a con and toss him some free samples.

MrGranger
10-02-2008, 03:19 PM
Not sure how you surmise that I'm doing well or poorly but my POV is this... look at a situation, find out the good and the bad, decide whether or not it smells right to you (every situations different) and act accordingly.

Amen brother! Amen to that.

Jason Powell
10-02-2008, 03:59 PM
Sean is a great guy.
Sean does work for Platinum.
Arcana will ask for a % of ownership, depending on the deal that YOU bring to the table. The days of the IMAGE-like contracts are over.
Arcana is looking to build itself out of the small, creator co-op that it started as. Nothing wrong with that.

That's it. For specific answers you must email Sean, who is very busy and might not get back to you for a very long time. Best way is to corner him at a con and toss him some free samples.

Also you guys/ladies have to think of it like this. Submit it to Arcana or whoever and see what deal they offer you. NOTHING says you have to accept said deal if you do not want to. I am planning on submitting my next comic to several different publishers and if I do not find the right deal then I can always self publish. Basically what I am saying is submissions does not equal obligation.

-Jason

Raven
10-02-2008, 04:26 PM
Mario was actually the one who warned me not to get into deals with Sean when he first came to Platinum. That made me really nervous and cautious. He wasn't happy with the Ant deal, but it was an agreement they mutually agreed to. Wasn't the best deal, it wasn't the worst either. I forget the details that were told to me, but I'm almost positive Mario had to buy back some rights to ANT before he could do anything with it. Maybe Mario will chime in here... he lurks!

Mario can't be relied upon either, the guy has no sense of loyalty for any publisher and has been consistent only in looking out for himself. What Sean does with his day job at Platinum has absolutely nothing to do with Arcana.

Nano-Love
10-02-2008, 04:29 PM
Iíve been doing some writing for a studio based in Canada. Theyíre in contact with Arcana and have shown me the contract. Like others said, itís a good deal if you know what you sign.

If you want 100% ownership go the self-publishing route or try to hook up with Image.

James Taylor
10-02-2008, 05:27 PM
Most Ďcreator ownedí publishers out there (IDW, Dark Horse, Boom, Penny Farthing and so on), take on a portion of the media rights Ė though typically not when reprinting older material. So Arcana is not unique in that.

The main difference between Arcana and the above publishers, and the complaint that I would make about their basic contract, is that the other publishers pay for the rights; whether itís paying you a page rate or pure and simple buying out the rights. I think itís a bit foolish for any creator to give up 50% their media rights for no guarantee of money.

Now Iím sure not everyone thatís gone through Arcana has had the exact same contract. Iíve seen/read them in the past when creators asked me for to look it over, and I personally wouldnít recommend it. Now if youíve gotten rejected by all the other publishers and you donít want to go through the hassle of self publishing and you donít mind their contract then go for it.

Truth is, speaking from experience, itís kind of foolish for a publisher to print creator owned material while not getting any media rights. If a book gets picked up by a movie studio, then the publisher gets nothing. Heck the creators could potentially take the book to another publisher when the movie comes out, depending on the contract, and the publisher will lose out on those movie related sales. Slave Labor brought this up a couple of years ago wishing that they had done things a bit differently. Image at least gets their fee for publishing creator-owned properties, which works for them.

If you donít mind giving away rights for your creation for free then itís a fine contract for you. To each their own. Always make sure that you read it carefully anytime rights to a creation are discussed and have no regrets after youíve sign on the line.

D.J. Coffman
10-02-2008, 08:18 PM
Mario can't be relied upon either, the guy has no sense of loyalty for any publisher and has been consistent only in looking out for himself. What Sean does with his day job at Platinum has absolutely nothing to do with Arcana.

Not sure if I agree with that last part. In fact I think it clearly crosses the line of a "conflict of interest" for a public company like Platinum to have a "publisher" who is actively running another comic company in it's office space. It would only be that though if he were an actual "employee" and he is not. He has a consultant contract like I had, which pretty much is just a loophole for many corporations to get around many things.

T.J. May
10-02-2008, 08:39 PM
Not sure if I agree with that last part. In fact I think it clearly crosses the line of a "conflict of interest" for a public company like Platinum to have a "publisher" who is actively running another comic company in it's office space. It would only be that though if he were an actual "employee" and he is not. He has a consultant contract like I had, which pretty much is just a loophole for many corporations to get around many things.

That, and Platinum has an option to buy Arcana. So, that alone makes it impossible to consider them separate entities anywhere other than on paper.

Jason Arthur
10-02-2008, 11:55 PM
Mario can't be relied upon either, the guy has no sense of loyalty for any publisher and has been consistent only in looking out for himself. What Sean does with his day job at Platinum has absolutely nothing to do with Arcana.

To be fair... there is no loyalty in this industry.

-- J

PIMPZILLA
10-03-2008, 12:00 AM
To be fair... there is no loyalty in this industry.

-- J
it's a very sad fact.

Lee Nordling
10-03-2008, 12:48 AM
To be fair... there is no loyalty in this industry.
That's a lot of crap.

I've seen a LOT of loyalty in this business.

I've also seen a lot of backstabbing, lying, and stealing. I've also wanted to say "I told you so" a million times to people who didn't listen to fair warning.

But, to be REALLY fair...there IS loyalty in this industry, but you shouldn't just trust anybody.

--Lee

the_poet
10-03-2008, 01:31 AM
I wouldn't touch any publisher or any person that has anything to do with Platinum with a 10-foot pole.

powerbomb1411
10-03-2008, 03:18 AM
There is no guarantee of money back anywhere in this industry and we've quite clearly stated creators own the rights to their work, none of us are willing to discuss details the of our contracts, so what exactly is it you want?

You think anyone will publish your work and let you keep all the money yourself, and the rights?

I understand there is no guarantee. I understand I would be lucky yo make $50 back.

And it hasn't been clearly stated. There have been parts that contradicted. And I am not asking anyone to discuss their contracts. Although I think it would be more helpful for the industry to be more open about the money factor. Everyone says it's not a place to go make money and you don't make much, but that depends on what each person considers a lot or a little money.

Most Ďcreator ownedí publishers out there (IDW, Dark Horse, Boom, Penny Farthing and so on), take on a portion of the media rights Ė though typically not when reprinting older material. So Arcana is not unique in that.

The main difference between Arcana and the above publishers, and the complaint that I would make about their basic contract, is that the other publishers pay for the rights; whether itís paying you a page rate or pure and simple buying out the rights. I think itís a bit foolish for any creator to give up 50% their media rights for no guarantee of money.

Now Iím sure not everyone thatís gone through Arcana has had the exact same contract. Iíve seen/read them in the past when creators asked me for to look it over, and I personally wouldnít recommend it. Now if youíve gotten rejected by all the other publishers and you donít want to go through the hassle of self publishing and you donít mind their contract then go for it.

Truth is, speaking from experience, itís kind of foolish for a publisher to print creator owned material while not getting any media rights. If a book gets picked up by a movie studio, then the publisher gets nothing. Heck the creators could potentially take the book to another publisher when the movie comes out, depending on the contract, and the publisher will lose out on those movie related sales. Slave Labor brought this up a couple of years ago wishing that they had done things a bit differently. Image at least gets their fee for publishing creator-owned properties, which works for them.

If you donít mind giving away rights for your creation for free then itís a fine contract for you. To each their own. Always make sure that you read it carefully anytime rights to a creation are discussed and have no regrets after youíve sign on the line.

This is exactly what I am getting at. If I am going to take out a bank loan ($5,00) to publish a comic in a timely manner. And I hope I am lucky enough to make $50 or more through an established publisher. Then I just don't see how that is so much better then just losing out on the little money and going self publish and keeping the rights yourself. I'm fin with splitting the rights up. But from what I have seen, it all comes down to who has the bigger percent to make the choices even if that percent is 51%.

And even then, my biggest concern, growing up watching the cartoons of my favorite heroes and even now reading comics. I loved seeing the various heroes interact seeing they were all part of the same world. I think it would be pretty cool to do with my own work. So I would hate to publish something under one company and now be able to include that character or characters in another book because it's under a different company.

That is my main concern.

Jason Arthur
10-03-2008, 07:37 AM
That's a lot of crap.

Not really.

I've seen a LOT of loyalty in this business.

I've also seen a lot of backstabbing, lying, and stealing. I've also wanted to say "I told you so" a million times to people who didn't listen to fair warning.

kinda makes your first sentence a little less believable.

But, to be REALLY fair...there IS loyalty in this industry, but you shouldn't just trust anybody.

So, in summation... there's loyalty... as long as people are getting paid large sums.

Loyalty nowadays is just an exclusive contract. Once that's up they move to the highest bidder.

Name some loyal people and I'll gladly succeed the point.

-- J

Jason Arthur
10-03-2008, 07:52 AM
This is exactly what I am getting at. If I am going to take out a bank loan ($5,00) to publish a comic in a timely manner. And I hope I am lucky enough to make $50 or more through an established publisher. Then I just don't see how that is so much better then just losing out on the little money and going self publish and keeping the rights yourself. I'm fin with splitting the rights up. But from what I have seen, it all comes down to who has the bigger percent to make the choices even if that percent is 51%.

The problem is almost entirely Diamond. They are the ONLY distributor and they pick and choose what books they want to distribute. Indie books are not popular with them. Since they're a monopoly, if they choose not to carry your book then you are screwed. You'll either have to sign a deal with a publisher (and then Diamond will all of a sudden like and approve the project) or your book will have to find another way to get readers. Not an easy task.

-- J

D.J. Coffman
10-03-2008, 07:57 AM
Oh, there is loyalty out there for sure. I guess it just depends on what circuit you're running. There are a lot of cut throat, cover your own ass type things that go on, but for the most part what I've witnessed in comics and the places and events I've been privy to, the private parties... everyone gets along.

And what kinda loyalty are we talking about here? This is a business, right? It ain't hacky sack. ;)

Bottom line, it's not rocket science to publish your own comics or graphic novels, or even be able to pitch them or find the right people. Hell, go to ONE show like New York or even the dainty small Wizard World Los Angeles, and people will come and find YOU at your table, if you want to pursue that sort of thing. I self published for so long that it was sort of a relief to let someone else handle those other things, but really it's not the BEST option. Every artist/creator should be learning how to do the business end themselves.

I was just reading Hugh McLeod's blog the other day and this quote is so true. More people in comics or who want to be in comics should think about this:

It always struck me as funny how people want to be artists, yet they don't want to be marketers. To me that's like wanting to be a pro football player, yet not wanting to keep in shape. Nice work if you can get it. -

He has a new book coming out soon that everyone in the creative field should buy up.

D.J. Coffman
10-03-2008, 08:08 AM
The problem is almost entirely Diamond. They are the ONLY distributor and they pick and choose what books they want to distribute. Indie books are not popular with them. Since they're a monopoly, if they choose not to carry your book then you are screwed. You'll either have to sign a deal with a publisher (and then Diamond will all of a sudden like and approve the project) or your book will have to find another way to get readers. Not an easy task.

-- J

It's easy to blame things on Diamond. They're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. You know why there isn't an equal competitor in that market? Because the market can't hold it! Comic sales are down all over compared to what they use to be in the hay-days. Indys feel like they're being mistreated, but the reality is most of them are lucky to break 1000 copies! ONE THOUSAND COPIES!-- those same people, they break 2000 or 3000 and they think that gives them clout to stay in the catalog for as long as they put books out. it does not. The market doesn't want most of these indy books unless they are put out by a "name" (and even then the sales are MEH) or unless something truly almost unique comes out that spreads because it's so damn good. Something like Mouseguard or Bone come to mind. But that's what some people are calling "the rarefied air"---

there's nothing that's going to come along and increase the DEMAND for comic books right now or fix the distribution system. That's the reality.

Jason Arthur
10-03-2008, 10:05 AM
I was just reading Hugh McLeod's blog the other day and this quote is so true. More people in comics or who want to be in comics should think about this:

"It always struck me as funny how people want to be artists, yet they don't want to be marketers. To me that's like wanting to be a pro football player, yet not wanting to keep in shape. Nice work if you can get it."


That's a really piss poor analogy.

Artists aren't marketers, they're artists. His analogy would make more sense if he said "that's like a person wanting to be a pro football player, but not wanting to hire an agent to handle the money-stuff."

Why do you think people like Warren Ellis has an agent? Hell, if anyone in our industry could self-market it's Warren, but he has an agent to help facilitate that.

Now, if you're talking about calling shops and asking them to carry your book, yeah, that's easy enough, but there's a lot more that goes into it.

Going back to the loyalty business... my understanding of loyalty in comics would be that you stick with a company despite offers from the other companies.

That RARELY happens. When artist and writer exclusive contracts run out they usually jump to the other side for another exclusive contract. Then back to the first publisher or a third one. Yeah, not hacky sack, for serious.

Diamond is a monopoly and sure, they're not the evil empire, but they've very bad news for indie creators. I know that selling 1000 copies (hell 100 copies) is great for an indie book, but my problem with them is that they often turn down books based on their best guess of whether the book would sell or not.

What makes them think they know? Sure they've been at it a while, but the comics market has been struggling for a while too, so it's not as if their track record shows that they KNOW what people want. That'd be kinda like President Bush saying that he knows what the people want when clearly he's been losing touch with us for years now.

There's an analogy that makes sense.

-- J

Lee Nordling
10-03-2008, 10:14 AM
So, in summation... there's loyalty... as long as people are getting paid large sums.
I never wrote that. Never.

Maybe people have just never been loyal to you.

But if so, that doesn't make it true for everybody.

--Lee

Jason Powell
10-03-2008, 10:15 AM
That, and Platinum has an option to buy Arcana. So, that alone makes it impossible to consider them separate entities anywhere other than on paper.

Actually that is not on the table anymore. Sean told us about this a while back.

-Jason

Jason Arthur
10-03-2008, 10:17 AM
I never wrote that. Never.

Didn't say you did, sorry if you misinterpreted. It seems to be the truth in comics though. See my previous post about exclusive contracts and such.

Maybe people have just never been loyal to you.

But if so, that doesn't make it true for everybody.

There's no need to be loyal to me, I'm a letterer. Hire the right person for your job. I'm talking about being loyal to your publisher. Maybe we're talking about different things here?

I know that people have creative teams that they're loyal to. Absolutely. Sounds like that's what you're talking about.

-- J

Lee Nordling
10-03-2008, 11:59 AM
There's no need to be loyal to me, I'm a letterer.
I'm extremely loyal to my letterer, not just because he can do the work, well, and on time, but because I know he'll come through for me when I need him, and he knows I'll always bring him work when I can.

And to your last point, yep, I believe there's a lot of loyalty among creators.

Yesterday, in NYC, an editor told me that I'd helped her so much with process and costs (even though I ended up not getting the job I'd quoted, but did a lot of consulting for her about what was what) that "she owed me and wanted to find something to work on together."

So we did.

What goes around comes around.

I believe in it.

Both ways.

--Lee

T.J. May
10-03-2008, 12:36 PM
Going back to the loyalty business... my understanding of loyalty in comics would be that you stick with a company despite offers from the other companies.

That RARELY happens. When artist and writer exclusive contracts run out they usually jump to the other side for another exclusive contract. Then back to the first publisher or a third one. Yeah, not hacky sack, for serious.



Disloyalty would be running out on the contract before it expires. Getting offered a better deal when you are a free agent is just good business.

Jason Arthur
10-03-2008, 12:46 PM
Disloyalty would be running out on the contract before it expires. Getting offered a better deal when you are a free agent is just good business.

Naturally. But to me "loyalty" is something that supersedes money.

Disloyalty has more than one meaning here, clearly.

-- J

maverick
10-03-2008, 12:56 PM
an artist doesn't necessarily need to be a marketer, unless he/she is also a self-publisher

duh

Raven
10-03-2008, 07:30 PM
Actually that is not on the table anymore. Sean told us about this a while back.

-Jason

I have never discussed this with Sean, but my guess is he wanted to pick up an investor for Arcana, someone to put some cash into it, instead they pulled him in to clean up their publishing division. That would be my guess how it went down.

Paul Sanderson
10-03-2008, 09:48 PM
It's easy to blame things on Diamond. They're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. You know why there isn't an equal competitor in that market? Because the market can't hold it! Comic sales are down all over compared to what they use to be in the hay-days. Indys feel like they're being mistreated, but the reality is most of them are lucky to break 1000 copies! ONE THOUSAND COPIES!-- those same people, they break 2000 or 3000 and they think that gives them clout to stay in the catalog for as long as they put books out. it does not. The market doesn't want most of these indy books unless they are put out by a "name" (and even then the sales are MEH) or unless something truly almost unique comes out that spreads because it's so damn good. Something like Mouseguard or Bone come to mind. But that's what some people are calling "the rarefied air"---

there's nothing that's going to come along and increase the DEMAND for comic books right now or fix the distribution system. That's the reality.

Yep, very true. Sales are down across the board, for innumerable reasons, most of which we've brought up ad nauseum on DW for years now.

Paul Sanderson
10-03-2008, 09:53 PM
I have never discussed this with Sean, but my guess is he wanted to pick up an investor for Arcana, someone to put some cash into it, instead they pulled him in to clean up their publishing division. That would be my guess how it went down.

Yeah, that sounds about right, I'd say.

Jason Powell
10-04-2008, 11:06 AM
I have never discussed this with Sean, but my guess is he wanted to pick up an investor for Arcana, someone to put some cash into it, instead they pulled him in to clean up their publishing division. That would be my guess how it went down.

From my understanding he got a good chunk of change but I am not speaking for him.

-Jason

Lee Nordling
10-04-2008, 11:48 AM
Setting aside any specific companies, I believe there's an important rule of thumb for creators to consider when signing with a publishing (or packaging) partner: Are you okay with what they can do within the scope of the contract?

To be more specific, if you sell your rights or control of the property (for whatever that you think is fair), does the scope of your agreement allow the publisher/whomever to do something you might just HATE?

Contracts need to be written for when the relationship goes south, not when everybody's getting along.

For example (and I KNOW this has occurred): if you sign an option deal that kicks into an acquisition after something goes into production (in another medium, PRESUMABLY film or TV), what happens if the company makes an online web animated cartoon of the property? Well, technically, by investing this money, the company you signed with just acquired your property by "producing" something.

If you make a deal with one company, what protections do you have against that company being sold to another company...where all VERBAL promises are forgotten or ignored?

What happens if you sign a deal with one company, where you believe that the person working with you is going to treat you well, then that person leaves the company or is fired? (Ask Ursula K. Leguin how she feels about the adaptation of her first two Earthsea novels for Sci-Fi Channel.)

As a company that's contracting with talent, MY goal is to have in place contracts that will survive me AND support my promises.

FIRST AND BEST RULE: get what's important in writing. If somebody's willing to promise something to your face, then make sure they put it on paper. If they won't, then they don't really mean what they told you.

--Lee

T.J. May
10-04-2008, 07:03 PM
an artist doesn't necessarily need to be a marketer, unless he/she is also a self-publisher

duh

Doesn't matter what line of work you are in. If you intend to be a freelancer, you greatly increase your potential for work if you are a good-to-great self-promoter.

Lee Nordling
10-04-2008, 11:27 PM
Doesn't matter what line of work you are in. If you intend to be a freelancer, you greatly increase your potential for work if you are a good-to-great self-promoter.
I'll go further than that: If you intend to be a freelancer, and can't get enough work on blinding talent, personal connections, or a universally praised body of work, you HAVE to be a good-to-great self-promoter...or you are bound to run out of gas and fail.

At anything.

--Lee

Lee Nordling
10-05-2008, 11:56 AM
I think we stopped discussing Arcana because there wasn't anything more to say.

I've enjoyed the segues, though.

Especially about the concept of loyalty.

Here's a provocative question: if somebody writes that there's NO loyalty (without qualification) in this business, can you ever trust THAT person to be loyal?

Even if the answer's "no," depending on your definition of loyalty, SHOULD anybody EVER expect anybody else to be loyal?

If the answer to both these are "no," by a consensus opinion, then I think we've reached a sad state of affairs.

Personally, amidst the need to be cautious and critical, I do believe in being loyal to creators and clients that I work for.

But that's just me.

And I still believe that what goes around comes around.

--Lee

shushubag
10-05-2008, 01:26 PM
I still believe that loyalty exists. Some people are actually wired that way.

Maybe there are loyal people who've had to bail out for issues other than loyalty.

Maybe the people saying you can't trust anyone are the most untrustworthy.

It's smart to think it but there's a very strong sense of cynicism and pessimism behind it.

Me? I'm an optimist. Even if I never find someone loyal it doesn't mean there aren't any out there.

It would just suck if I never met any of them.

Jason Arthur
10-05-2008, 03:56 PM
Ugh... Ok, I'll say it again, since you guys just ignored it the first time.

I was saying that there's no loyalty to companies. When a better deal comes along nearly everyone takes it.

You guys are talking primarily about loyalty to creative teams. There's certainly more loyalty there.

And it's been my experience that people who say things like "There's no loyalty in this business" are the ones that have been screwed over. But whatever.

-- J

zcotty
10-05-2008, 05:07 PM
Is there some unwritten rule that says you can't part as friends?

Say your with publisher, you're getting your books out there and have a great relationship.... Along comes publisher X. They offer a better deal, they're bigger and your book will reach more readers.

If the first publisher doesn't change their deal and calls you disloyal for wanting to go for the better one, who's interests are they really thinking about?

I mean this is our bread and butter not just some hobby because we have nothing better to do.

A LOYAL publisher would say "I wish you could stay on but this is all we can offer. Go for it and lets do buisness again in the future"

PIMPZILLA
10-06-2008, 12:53 AM
From the conversation's I've had with Sean he seems like a pretty cool cat.

Lee Nordling
10-06-2008, 09:59 AM
Ugh... Ok, I'll say it again, since you guys just ignored it the first time.

I was saying that there's no loyalty to companies. When a better deal comes along nearly everyone takes it.

You guys are talking primarily about loyalty to creative teams. There's certainly more loyalty there.

And it's been my experience that people who say things like "There's no loyalty in this business" are the ones that have been screwed over. But whatever.

-- J
Nope. I didn't ignore you. I accepted your perspective...and even though I don't have your view of the world, as you qualified it, I accept your perspective.

And, even though I am a creator, I'm also a company, and I accept that you don't think there is any loyalty to me, except via a payday, and that I, as a company, I don't have any loyalty to others, except for how I can use them.

To be clear, you never wrote that specifically about me, but that's how I took what you wrote (since I'm a company working with creators and other companies), and it's why this part of the discussion has been so interesting to me.

So I go back to what I acknowledge is a provocative question: Can somebody who doesn't believe that loyalty exists in--let's stay to your qualification--a creator-company relationship be trusted to be loyal in that relationship...and should they? Fair question, I think.

BTW, I certainly would agree that there are far too many companies that take advantage of the good will of creators, and many of them--no names--deserve to burn in a hell of their own making. I also believe there are too many creators who don't fulfill their contractual obligations, who leave responsible professionals high and dry, and they belong in a separate hell.

But I've also experienced the results of a lot of loyalty, from both sides of the desk.

Mostly, when I saw the absolutism of your initial remark, I recoiled...because I didn't and don't see the world that way, and I can be a pretty cynical guy, but not THAT cynical.

--Lee

Lee Nordling
10-06-2008, 10:09 AM
Is there some unwritten rule that says you can't part as friends?

Say your with publisher, you're getting your books out there and have a great relationship.... Along comes publisher X. They offer a better deal, they're bigger and your book will reach more readers.

If the first publisher doesn't change their deal and calls you disloyal for wanting to go for the better one, who's interests are they really thinking about?

I mean this is our bread and butter not just some hobby because we have nothing better to do.

A LOYAL publisher would say "I wish you could stay on but this is all we can offer. Go for it and lets do buisness again in the future"

I think leaving work that you've contractually agreed to produce is unprofessional. The person who does this is ONLY looking out for their own self interest. And there are creators who do this. Too many.

I think there's a simple way around that, especially when a creator takes a job that doesn't pay enough: establish up front that you might need to take better-paying work if it comes along, and that you'll fit the balance of the job in as best you can...but that for this reason you might not be able to meet the contractual deadline.

Now, that's simple AND professional, and the person that contracts with you understands the risks involved with hiring you.

I've had creators discuss this with me, and I'm completely cool with it when the project has slack time built in. And if they need to leave the project, well, that's cool, too; I took my chances.

--Lee

jimmybott
10-06-2008, 10:15 AM
Is there some unwritten rule that says you can't part as friends?

Say your with publisher, you're getting your books out there and have a great relationship.... Along comes publisher X. They offer a better deal, they're bigger and your book will reach more readers.

If the first publisher doesn't change their deal and calls you disloyal for wanting to go for the better one, who's interests are they really thinking about?

I mean this is our bread and butter not just some hobby because we have nothing better to do.

A LOYAL publisher would say "I wish you could stay on but this is all we can offer. Go for it and lets do buisness again in the future"

Generally this happens a lot. Small publishers know they have a small budget and when they find a great artists they are realistic enough to know that they probably won't keep them that long as they only have limited funds.

But let's say that artist goes on to do big things it can be a positive for the indy publisher as their new fans go back and seek out their previous published work. I'd take someone like Ryan Stegman as a good example, as he continues to do more work at marvel and the like, you hope some of his newly acquired fans will go back and pick up his issues of "Midnight Kiss" and "The Lexian Chronicles" from Markosia. Which I also see happening down the line with guys like Paul Green and SJames.

It's a shame on the small indy companies, but it's just the way these things seem to go. I don't think it's really about loyalty per say. I think if you agreed to do x amount of issues at a low rate and are legally obligated to do it, you should live up to your obligation. For example, if DC offers you some work while you're working on issue 2 or 3 of a 4 mini-series. Explain the situation to them and complete the four issues. I like to think they'd be more impressed than annoyed with your decision. But then, the way my luck is, I'm probably totally wrong :har:

Lee Nordling
10-06-2008, 11:35 AM
Generally this happens a lot. Small publishers know they have a small budget and when they find a great artists they are realistic enough to know that they probably won't keep them that long as they only have limited funds.

But let's say that artist goes on to do big things it can be a positive for the indy publisher as their new fans go back and seek out their previous published work. I'd take someone like Ryan Stegman as a good example, as he continues to do more work at marvel and the like, you hope some of his newly acquired fans will go back and pick up his issues of "Midnight Kiss" and "The Lexian Chronicles" from Markosia. Which I also see happening down the line with guys like Paul Green and SJames.

It's a shame on the small indy companies, but it's just the way these things seem to go. I don't think it's really about loyalty per say. I think if you agreed to do x amount of issues at a low rate and are legally obligated to do it, you should live up to your obligation. For example, if DC offers you some work while you're working on issue 2 or 3 of a 4 mini-series. Explain the situation to them and complete the four issues. I like to think they'd be more impressed than annoyed with your decision. But then, the way my luck is, I'm probably totally wrong :har:
First, I do think that there needs to be flexibility with low-paying work.

How about explaining this all at the beginning, so the publisher knows the extent of your commitment? (And yep, the commitment is to finish the job, so I can appreciate that.)

(Possible answer: because then you might not get the job.)

(My response to that possible answer: not as professional as it could be.)

--Lee

zcotty
10-06-2008, 05:11 PM
My comment wasn't meant as a jump ship in the middle of a contract. I meant when the contract is up. Before re-newiing it talk it over with the publisher and then possibly leaving.

I don't consider that disloyal.

T.J. May
10-06-2008, 08:29 PM
My comment wasn't meant as a jump ship in the middle of a contract. I meant when the contract is up. Before re-newiing it talk it over with the publisher and then possibly leaving.

I don't consider that disloyal.

If anyone has seen the movie "Ray", there is a scene that best illustrates this point. Ray Charles gets offered a big time deal by a major studio.

Though he knows they can't afford it, he gives the indy company that launched him an opportunity to match it. Of course they don't, but they thank each other for the mutual opportunity with best wishes for the future.

No bridges burned, nothing dishonest, just business and they move on personally as friends.

I've seen hundreds of examples of that same type of professionalism in comics. In fact it happens over and over on this board alone. It's the nature of success in a collaborative field.

Jason Arthur
10-06-2008, 10:15 PM
To be clear, you never wrote that specifically about me, but that's how I took what you wrote (since I'm a company working with creators and other companies), and it's why this part of the discussion has been so interesting to me.

Clearly you're misinterpreting my statement. I'm tired of typing it and even more tired of trying to explain myself.

So I go back to what I acknowledge is a provocative question: Can somebody who doesn't believe that loyalty exists in--let's stay to your qualification--a creator-company relationship be trusted to be loyal in that relationship...and should they? Fair question, I think.

That's like saying people that question George Bush's intelligence are probably dumb, innit? Fair question, my ass. I've been fully loyal to everyone I've ever worked for. I've worked for free on books to help people. I work all hours of the night to get projects in on time (because other members of creative teams drop the ball). Your backhanded remarks are insulting and somewhat childish. Get over yourself, captain noble.

Mostly, when I saw the absolutism of your initial remark, I recoiled...because I didn't and don't see the world that way, and I can be a pretty cynical guy, but not THAT cynical.

Welcome to Earth. Nobody can be trusted fully.

-- J

Lee Nordling
10-06-2008, 11:57 PM
Clearly you're misinterpreting my statement. I'm tired of typing it and even more tired of trying to explain myself.

...


Welcome to Earth. Nobody can be trusted fully.

-- J
Clearly I'm not, and I'm tired of trying to find a way to understand how this statement of yours at the bottom doesn't say exactly what I thought you were saying all along.

Nothing personal intended here; it's what I thought you were saying, and I have a different view of life on Earth.

As I've written before elsewhere, I'm less concerned with arguing than clarifying.

As far as making backhanded remarks, they weren't; my time is better spent elsewhere. I did note in the first mention of that question that it was provocative, but it wasn't aimed at you. It posed the question to the group; I wanted to know where we stood on the subject of loyalty, to whom, and why.

That's what professionals are SUPPOSED to discuss in all fields: ethics.

Now, let's discuss the ethics and childishness of name-calling...

Naw, let's not.

--Lee

shushubag
10-07-2008, 12:05 AM
Yeah dude, seriously we know what you're saying and totally understand why. We just don't feel the same way. And we're not trying you to change your view either just giving the forum a different perspective, not you. You have your own view and it's totally valid, we just have a different mindset.

Scribbly
10-07-2008, 03:09 AM
Welcome to Earth. Nobody can be trusted fully.
-- J
Just you and your dog, isn't it? :laugh:

Jason Arthur
10-07-2008, 09:48 AM
Just you and your dog, isn't it? :laugh:

My dog can't be trusted either. She tries to hump my son when I'm not looking.

I'm done with this idiocy. Insult people and then say it wasn't directed at anyone in particular and drag on a BS conversation that doesn't pertain to the original subject. My original post was in pseudo-defense of Mario Gully, who I've worked for and with on projects. Raven had said of Mario: "the guy has no sense of loyalty for any publisher and has been consistent only in looking out for himself." To which I responded about loyalty. You CLEARLY (and there's no doubt at all here) misinterpreted that as a knock on creative teams and not being loyal to your inker or something.

My welcome to planet earth comment was no different than what you said in your first post in this thread: "But, to be REALLY fair...there IS loyalty in this industry, but you shouldn't just trust anybody."

So, are you now saying that your comments mean you and I agree? See how silly you're getting here?

-- J

Raven
10-07-2008, 10:16 AM
Raven had said of Mario: "the guy has no sense of loyalty for any publisher and has been consistent only in looking out for himself." To which I responded about loyalty. You CLEARLY (and there's no doubt at all here) misinterpreted that as a knock on creative teams and not being loyal to your inker or something.

-- J

Just to be clear, from what I have heard, two different publishers invested time into the book and then when it was time to recoup some of that investment, he went elsewhere, he might be a very good guy, but jumping to Image from Arcana, and then jumping from Image, just seemed a bit stupid and I am sure must have caused quite a bit of headache for a few people. But I don't know that for sure nor was I with Arcana at the time.

Jason Arthur
10-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Just to be clear, from what I have heard, two different publishers invested time into the book and then when it was time to recoup some of that investment, he went elsewhere, he might be a very good guy, but jumping to Image from Arcana, and then jumping from Image, just seemed a bit stupid and I am sure must have caused quite a bit of headache for a few people. But I don't know that for sure nor was I with Arcana at the time.

I talked with Mario about it and, like you, I don't know for certain what the real story is, but the version I heard was drastically different.

My point in response to you wasn't meant with any ill will (unlike some of the posts that followed that were off-handedly directed at me), just stating that most creators, when offered what they consider a better deal, tend to not show any loyalty.

That was my whole point, and here we are 3 and a half pages later, still trying to figure out why this thread won't die.

-- J

Lee Nordling
10-07-2008, 12:33 PM
I'm done with this idiocy. Insult people and then say it wasn't directed at anyone in particular and drag on a BS conversation that doesn't pertain to the original subject. My original post was in pseudo-defense of Mario Gully, who I've worked for and with on projects. Raven had said of Mario: "the guy has no sense of loyalty for any publisher and has been consistent only in looking out for himself." To which I responded about loyalty. You CLEARLY (and there's no doubt at all here) misinterpreted that as a knock on creative teams and not being loyal to your inker or something.

My welcome to planet earth comment was no different than what you said in your first post in this thread: "But, to be REALLY fair...there IS loyalty in this industry, but you shouldn't just trust anybody."

So, are you now saying that your comments mean you and I agree? See how silly you're getting here?

-- J
Glad to see you're done with this idiocy.

Look, pal, I never insulted you...and never intended to.

We had a discussion about the nature of loyalty in this industry, from creator to creator, creator to company, and company to creator.

I've worked to make my thoughts clear, and solicited thoughts from others on this topic. I never said you were "wrong" to believe what you believed; I simply worked to understand your perspective, and if I misunderstood where you stand, well, it's because YOU haven't been a very effective communicator, which isn't the fault of anybody else here.

If you'll stop taking this discussion personally, then perhaps we could actually chat about something important.

--Lee

WSSmith
10-07-2008, 01:09 PM
"Lack of loyalty is one of the major causes of failure in every walk of life" - Napoleon Hill

"If all of my friends were to jump off a bridge, I wouldn't follow. I'd be at the bottom to catch them when they fall." - Anonymous

maverick
10-07-2008, 02:37 PM
"Be true to your work, your word, and your friend." --Henry David Thoreau

Jason Arthur
10-07-2008, 02:49 PM
Glad to see you're done with this idiocy.

Look, pal, I never insulted you...and never intended to.

You said (and I'll paraphrase) "can people who believe there's no loyalty be trusted to be loyal?" How is that NOT a shot at the person, who in this thread, said there's no loyalty in this business (when discussing Mario leaving Arcana to go to Image)? You're basically saying (whether you like to believe it or not) that I can't be trusted. I cited my professional background as proof that your suggestion is pure silliness, but instead of taking that and quoting me, you focus on twisting my original quote to suit your noble cause.

We had a discussion about the nature of loyalty in this industry, from creator to creator, creator to company, and company to creator.

No, YOU had a discussion about the nature of loyalty from creator to creator, creator to company and company to creator. I was talking about Mario's loyalty to Arcana (wow, look, something RELEVANT to the original discussion). I stated that there's no loyalty in this business and you took that to mean that everyone cuts everyone's throat (except for you, of course). You misinterpreted what I was saying and even when I clarified you kept beating a dead horse.

I've worked to make my thoughts clear,

That's fine, but you seem to just pass off my thoughts as irrelevant and that's where I've taken exception.

I never said you were "wrong" to believe what you believed; I simply worked to understand your perspective, and if I misunderstood where you stand, well, it's because YOU haven't been a very effective communicator, which isn't the fault of anybody else here.

I've made numerous posts explaining myself and you keep going back to some misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Taking my words to make it sound like I believe people in general aren't loyal to one another, when you yourself basically said as much "you shouldn't just trust anybody" you said.

If you'll stop taking this discussion personally, then perhaps we could actually chat about something important.

If you'll quit insinuating that I can't be trusted to be loyal then no problem.

I suggest you re-read this thread from the beginning and see where things went wrong. See where the civility ended (hint: it occured in one of YOUR posts). Then think about why you keep discussing this.

We've agreed that loyalty exists within creative teams. But you fail to admit that there's relatively no loyalty to publishers. Loyalty to a publisher is fine, but it's not smart if a better deal comes along. This is a capitalist market, is it not? Sure, it's noble to say "Nah, I like where I'm at, even if I'm not making enough money to pay my bills", but it's not exactly smart.

Are you suggesting that YOU would stay with a publisher (say Arcana) if Image came along and offered you FULL ownership of your own property, advertising, promotion and just a better deal financially? Say your book is doing ok at Arcana (like Ant, Mario's book was), but then Image could reach a wider audience and give you better promotion of your book. Would you honestly stay loyal to Arcana?

Please God say yes so I can laugh myself stupid.

-- J

powerbomb1411
10-07-2008, 03:29 PM
Nice to know this has stayed on topic about Arcana. Even better hearing these behind the scenes aspects that no one is willing to talk about. I hate that aspect of comics. It's one thing to keep a story a secret, but it's another thing entirely to keep how people do business or how business is done a secret.

maverick
10-07-2008, 04:31 PM
you can take this away from the thread: different people get different deals.

Lee Nordling
10-07-2008, 06:30 PM
If you'll quit insinuating that I can't be trusted to be loyal then no problem.
I don't have a clue whether you can be trusted or not.

And that wasn't an insinuation, either.

Now, for the sake of everybody's peace, since there apparently can't be a broader conversation, I'm going to say that I'm always happy to have a civil chat...with civil professionals.

--Lee

Jason Arthur
10-07-2008, 08:04 PM
I don't have a clue whether you can be trusted or not.

And that wasn't an insinuation, either.

Now, for the sake of everybody's peace, since there apparently can't be a broader conversation, I'm going to say that I'm always happy to have a civil chat...with civil professionals.

--Lee

As am I. Too bad that didn't occur here.

So, you're not going to answer any of the questions I posted, huh?

-- J

Raven
10-08-2008, 09:59 AM
Are you suggesting that YOU would stay with a publisher (say Arcana) if Image came along and offered you FULL ownership of your own property, advertising, promotion and just a better deal financially? Say your book is doing ok at Arcana (like Ant, Mario's book was), but then Image could reach a wider audience and give you better promotion of your book. Would you honestly stay loyal to Arcana?

Please God say yes so I can laugh myself stupid.

-- J

Yeah I would.

You know why? Because I submitted it to Image and they never responded.
So if the book started making money and generating a buzz and some jerkoff from Image came sniffing around making offers, even if it benefited me, I'd kick them in their ass and send them on their way.

Lee Nordling
10-08-2008, 10:55 AM
As am I. Too bad that didn't occur here.

So, you're not going to answer any of the questions I posted, huh?

-- J
I don't know which ones were serious, and which were simply sarcastic.

If the last one was serious, and you want to discuss it without "laughing yourself stupid"--an opening I'll ignore--then I'll be happy to address it once you take that chip off your shoulder.

Otherwise, as I wrote, I'll stick to conversations with those who can write and behave in a civil and professional manner.

But if you want to wipe the slate clean and start over with questions about loyalty, self-interest, and the crossover points of personal and professional relationships, I'll be happy to.

There's a lot to discuss, and there are some fascinating historical examples of "smart business decisions" backfiring.

--Lee

Jason Arthur
10-08-2008, 11:18 AM
I don't know which ones were serious, and which were simply sarcastic.

If the last one was serious, and you want to discuss it without "laughing yourself stupid"--an opening I'll ignore--then I'll be happy to address it once you take that chip off your shoulder.

--Lee

Here's the thing: if you answer yes, that you would remain loyal then you're either a liar (not saying Raven is) or you're just very bullheaded and hold a grudge (sounds more like what Raven is saying), because frankly we do this as much for the money as the art itself. Sure, we can kid ourselves and say we just love making art, but anyone that says that would surely not take a CUT in pay to keep doing this. My "laugh myself stupid" comment was a bit much, I'm sorry. You've just gotten under my skin a bit with the condescending manner of your responses. I honestly didn't even expect you to answer since you've declined to respond to any of my other questions and have dwelled solely on misinterpreting my original post.

Maybe Raven's serious. Maybe he/she (sorry, I can't tell by "Raven") would seriously stay where they are. Making less money than their property is worth and sharing the rights to their own projects/thoughts/art. Maybe that's the loyal thing to do. Of course Raven offsets his/her answer by saying that Image had rejected a project. That kind of qualifier wasn't in play with my question, but it's fair to throw it in and answer like Raven did.

But I'll say this: even with the original rejection by Image, wouldn't it be better to share your stories with a larger audience with better promotion and gaining back all of your rights to your own work? Why would you stay with the worse deal (not just in terms of the money, but in terms of being able to reach a larger audience). Isn't that what we're shooting for? Tell good stories to as many people as we can?

I'll qualify my statements by saying that, as a letterer, Arcana doesn't pay me HALF as well as Joe Average indie creator does. I don't know if their deal is better for other professionals, but I had to negotiate to make my deal reasonable. But I like Sean, he's been nice, professional and responds to emails far quicker than most companies I've worked for.

As a freelancer I go where the money is. Is that disloyal? No, because I fulfill all of my contractual obligations before I move to the next book. It's far different than a creator moving their book from one publisher to another. If I had an exclusive contract with DC and then left because Marvel offered me a better deal (I can dream, can't I?) then THAT would be what I consider disloyal.

Am I making sense to you now? This was my point all along and I'm still not sure why it was lost on you.

-- J

Calloway
10-08-2008, 11:30 AM
Yeah I would.

You know why? Because I submitted it to Image and they never responded.
So if the book started making money and generating a buzz and some jerkoff from Image came sniffing around making offers, even if it benefited me, I'd kick them in their ass and send them on their way.


This is why you've gone no where in comics. There's loyalty and then there is just plain stupidity.

Jason Arthur
10-08-2008, 12:17 PM
This is why you've gone no where in comics. There's loyalty and then there is just plain stupidity.

No need for name calling. You and I agree that Raven's move wouldn't be wise professionally or economically, but it's his call to make (I'm now just assuming Raven is a he, hope I'm not off on that).

-- J

Raven
10-08-2008, 12:31 PM
No need for name calling. You and I agree that Raven's move wouldn't be wise professionally or economically, but it's his call to make (I'm now just assuming Raven is a he, hope I'm not off on that).

-- J

I'm a guy, and a bullheaded one.

If it was about money, I'd be distributing comics, not writing them. Image doesn't pay for anything other than printing, right? Arcana has gone far past that for me. Nor do I personally believe that Image has all that much to offer, many Image projects have failed so it isn't like the I is a guarantee the way Marvel and DC are. On top of that, I am not a big fan of Kirkman's work.

In other words, I don't see anything at Image I like, but I gave them a shot with the same project and they didn't see any value in it. Once it has proven its value, if they wanted it, they would have to offer more than they probably have at their disposal to offer (such as paying the artist or cash up front).
I want to give a better response, but I have to rush to work now. .

Jason Arthur
10-08-2008, 01:13 PM
I'm a guy, and a bullheaded one.

If it was about money, I'd be distributing comics, not writing them. Image doesn't pay for anything other than printing, right? Arcana has gone far past that for me. Nor do I personally believe that Image has all that much to offer, many Image projects have failed so it isn't like the I is a guarantee the way Marvel and DC are. On top of that, I am not a big fan of Kirkman's work.

Yeah, my question was more of a hypothetical one. I just used Arcana and Image because that was part of the original discussion. Substitute Marvel or DC or Dark Horse or whoever for Arcana (and for that matter, sub Arcana for whoever).

-- J

Blargo
10-08-2008, 01:35 PM
"If all of my friends were to jump off a bridge, I wouldn't follow. I'd be at the bottom to catch them when they fall." - Anonymous


"If all of my friends were to jump off a bridge, I'd be at the bottom to look through their pockets for loose change." - Me

D.J. Coffman
10-08-2008, 02:05 PM
This has strayed pretty far off topic. Locking it down.