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dano
08-10-2006, 02:51 PM
It seems that there is a modern day trend for pencilers to draw something the way that it would looked inked. Meaning, theres line weight, hatching, it's incredibly neat with few if any sketch lines, etc.

It also seems that inkers are more and more reliant on pencillers doing this for them to ink beautifully. Like it removes some responsibility from them to be artists and not just tracer/inkers.

At risk of overusing the term, it seems very incestuous; kid sees an inked comic and thinks thats how it should be drawn so grows up and draws the way things are inked. It seems as if this would be damaging to the industry and especially inkers who are losing power and credibility in the process.

Pens&Pixels
08-10-2006, 03:01 PM
I think putting artists into tiny little subdivisions is potentially more damaging than an artist who is versatile enough to break out of whatever box we try to put them in. The comic industry is not built on job descriptions.

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 03:02 PM
That's not all that recent, is it? I've pretty much seen that as long as I've been looking at the components.

It's ego. The pencilers don't trust the inkers.

It's funny, because I always figured from the way the process had always been desribed that the most important quality a penciler could have is strong storytelling and that it was more important that the inker was a strong artist.

stahss
08-10-2006, 03:12 PM
I think the trend is undoubtedly to draw tighter and tighter pencils. Thankfully the majority of the folks I've had the pleasure to ink over leave me room to play and done't bother with tons of details and line weights and all that.

Bucky, pencils were for the most part looser back in the day...take a look at some of Buscema's Conan work, for example. He was essentially doing only layouts.

Dano, you raise an interesting point about kids who are learning tryng to draw pencils like the finished art...meanwhile, if they could see Jim Lee's pencils alone more often, they'd learn how much his inkers bring to the table.

dano
08-10-2006, 03:16 PM
I've often held my tongue (fingers?) in critiquing in Artist Showcase from saying 'hey, you draw like Scott Williams inks Jim lee!" :D

Mecha
08-10-2006, 03:44 PM
I agree with Stahss, it's a growing trend to have clean pencils.

The thing about the inkers is, if they're good they don't rely on the pencillers, they can make the inks dynamic on their own. Like Stahss I like to have room to play :)

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 03:57 PM
Bucky, pencils were for the most part looser back in the day...take a look at some of Buscema's Conan work, for example. He was essentially doing only layouts.

I'm talking more in the last 10 years. I've seen some really loose breakdowns...to the point where the pencils pretty much only indicate character placement and angles. But most of the pencil samples I've seen in the last 10 years have seemed pretty tight.

stahss
08-10-2006, 04:02 PM
Ah. I see.
I don't know how much of it comes from the artists or the demands of editors and companies when you try to break in. Probably a bit of both. I've never assembled a pencilling portfolio, but I'd imagine they'd want to see some pretty tight finishes. Anyone have any experience with talking to editors about pencils?

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 04:07 PM
Well, Caputo recommends tight pencils in his book...may be just him, but it may indicate a trend.

Yeah, I guess a lot of art teams don't really get the time to get to know each other and maybe don't reach that level of simpatico that would guarantee a good product.

L Jamal
08-10-2006, 04:10 PM
It's the difference between pencilling 2 books a months (John Romita Jr) and 1 book every 2-3 months (Bryan Hitch).

I think there is a trend for the pencillers to have more control over the final look. This means a Jim Lee page still looks like a Jim Lee page whether Dan Green or Sandra Hope or Scott Williams inks it.

There is also a trend where inkers overall bring less to pencils. While there are still distinctive inkers, you find less distinctive inkers like Sienkiewicz or Kent Williams and more Image style inkers that follow the lines the pencils present exactly.

It all really depends on the what the editor wants.
For me, comics are not about hi art, they are about telling the story. Anything that does more than tell the story is just in the way as a quick glance at any Alan Moore Awesome story can show.

dano
08-10-2006, 04:13 PM
I would have to chalk that up to ignorance of art on the part of some editors. Theres a reason art directors have art training. I'm not under the impression that most comic book editors have any knowledge of art outside of the comics (or realted geek fields) they've read.

It just seems silly and inefficient to require tight pencils.

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 04:14 PM
It just seems silly and inefficient to require tight pencils.

It's all getting erased anyway. :laugh:

dano
08-10-2006, 04:16 PM
so its kinda chicken-egg. Do inkers bring less so pencillers have to be tight or because pencillers are so tight?

L Jamal
08-10-2006, 04:17 PM
It just seems silly and inefficient to require tight pencils.
It I pay Jim Lee for pencils it better well look like Jim Lee Pencils when the inking is done. The only way to assure that is to have Jim Lee pencil as tight as possible.

L Jamal
08-10-2006, 04:20 PM
so its kinda chicken-egg. Do inkers bring less so pencillers have to be tight or because pencillers are so tight?
I think the pencillers became tighter first. You can start seeing the difference whent he Image era guys started getting Marvel books. There's a big difference between Liefeld, Larsen and McFarlane on their early DC work and their later Marvel work. A large part of that was they began inking each other and themselves.

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 04:21 PM
It I pay Jim Lee for pencils it better well look like Jim Lee Pencils when the inking is done. The only way to assure that is to have Jim Lee pencil as tight as possible.

This makes perfect sense, but it's also sort of analogous to movie studios sticking to sequels, remakes, star vehicles, not chancing that something unfamiliar could turn out better.

dano
08-10-2006, 06:20 PM
It I pay Jim Lee for pencils it better well look like Jim Lee Pencils when the inking is done. The only way to assure that is to have Jim Lee pencil as tight as possible.

No, if you pay for jim lee pencils you get jim lee pencils. If you pay Klaus Jansen to ink Jim Lee's pencils you get Jansen over Lee. If you want it to look like "Jim Lee" you should hire Scott Williams to ink.

L Jamal
08-10-2006, 06:33 PM
I agreed however that's ther mentality of today's fans and apparently editors.

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 06:37 PM
I agreed however that's ther mentality of today's fans and apparently editors.

Ahh..perhaps quotation marks next time. :)

Biofungus
08-10-2006, 06:52 PM
Well, Caputo recommends tight pencils in his book...may be just him, but it may indicate a trend.


Assuming you mean Capullo (as in Greg Capullo), there's a good reason for that. Have you ever seen his early Spawn work BEFORE MacFarlane inked it?

His style was different, but it always came out looking MacFarlane-ish because Mac altered the final look when inking the pages. That's why Capullo was known for a long while as a Mac ripoff.

Biofungus
08-10-2006, 06:52 PM
...was they began inking each other and themselves.

ooo, kinky. :p

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 07:08 PM
Assuming you mean Capullo (as in Greg Capullo), there's a good reason for that. Have you ever seen his early Spawn work BEFORE MacFarlane inked it?

Ton Caputo...this dude...

http://www.clayholio.com/Pictures/How%20to%20Self-Publish.jpg

Biofungus
08-10-2006, 07:16 PM
Ton Caputo...this dude...

http://www.clayholio.com/Pictures/How%20to%20Self-Publish.jpg
oh. well, I was planning to bring up the Capullo issue anyway, I just thought you gave me an inadvertent seque :)

Buckyrig
08-10-2006, 07:18 PM
oh. well, I was planning to bring up the Capullo issue anyway, I just thought you gave me an inadvertent seque :)

NP.

I just brought it up as the opinion of a publisher...small potatoes though he may be. ;)

crozonia
08-10-2006, 07:39 PM
Theres a reason art directors have art training.

Haha! WRONG! :cry:

Phatman
08-11-2006, 11:24 AM
Very good points so far. I think that a lot of the move to the clean style has less to do with inking and more with modern coloring techniques. To me, it seems that a lot of publishers are looking for pencilers to create what is, in reality, coloring book pages for the colorists. In doing so, a lot of today's art lacks the vigor and energy of looser pencils that are inked by another talented artist who really knows how to embellish the penciller's art.

L Jamal
08-11-2006, 11:27 AM
I'm not sure what is meant by "Coloring Book Pages."
Coloring books trend towards simple line art without much rendering while comics are trending towards photorealism.

Phatman
08-11-2006, 12:05 PM
I'm not sure what is meant by "Coloring Book Pages."
Coloring books trend towards simple line art without much rendering while comics are trending towards photorealism.

I'm not talking about the photorealists, as much as guys with the cleaner, more stylized art. There seems to be a trend towards leaving a lot of room for a colorist to add the value and shading that used to be rendered by an inker through hatching, stippling ,etc.

L Jamal
08-11-2006, 12:08 PM
The animated books have much cleaner and open art. Outside that there are maybe a handful of guys that have open styles guys like McNiven and Rob Haynes. Those guys are also more involved with color direction than your average pencillers.

Phatman
08-11-2006, 12:14 PM
McNiven is a great example. Pascal Ferry is another that crossed my mind. Tony Harris is a realist who leaves a lot open to the colorist if you check out his work form pencils to colors. The inking on his work adds nothing to the pencils at all. They should just go from pencils to coloring his stuff.

Ingrid K. V. Hardy
08-12-2006, 09:40 AM
If I may, I find this (and the thread about color over pencils) of extreme interest. The majority of samples that people post here seem to lean towards clean and tight - and it looks fabulous that way, I might add - so I thought that that is the way the pros want it, if you want to get hired. Is this the case?

Biofungus
08-12-2006, 06:19 PM
I think the problem is, for actually showing your portfolio (to an editor), you want it to be as clean and strong as it can be, even if your style is normally a sketchy one (like mine is). I also think that editors want to see strong, clean pencils because it's a lot quicker and easier to see what's good and what isn't about the pencils, since they have to see so many portfolios at conventions.

I think if you have a sketchier style, you're better off sending in your samples so they can peruse them at their leisure. If you have a clean style, you can take the samples to conventions.

Ingrid K. V. Hardy
08-13-2006, 08:48 AM
Thanks! I had better send mine 'cuz my style is fairly sketchy. Very funny secret link by the way! :laugh: Very nice badgers!

egets
08-15-2006, 05:02 PM
:laugh: Biofungus is such a Biofungus. I have been thinking about this inking that which type of pencils I have enjoyed inking the most and what kind of project could suit me most and I have come to the following conclusions

1. as much as I respect and am totally overwhelmed by somebody like Joe Madureira (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I would probably not like to ink his work for regularly (like I got a chance this century even, Im so arrogant lol!) anyways, of course if somebody came to offer me a gig I wont spit on that persons face but IDEALLY what would I enjoy doing the most would not be too pro and tight pencils, that does not leave me any space at all and since he has polished his style so to the extreme I realise he must be expecting the inker to be following them slavely-hence there isnt even room for anything else now :blink:

I can hear somebody say there that wouldnt I want to ink on top of it because I would then at the same time learn to draw like him, no, I dont learn anything from cramming, so I dont think so I wont learn anything from inking tight pencils rather I will forget instantly what i have inked.

2. Conclusion from nr 1. I need a penciller who's not too explicit about his pencilling style, maybe a beginner like me where we will feel comradial ship as we are both pushing each other up the ladders, we are learning as we are doing. I see his or her weaknesses- I embetter them or sort of, it will be like brainstorming where she or he gives me visions that I might have not seen before then I will add into it my own and together it will become either mediocre or even as good as any pros material-Thats how I could visualise it anyways and will be learning from each other as we are doing


3. The benefit of this kind of inking for me personally would be that I would then learn all the time as I would like to become a penciller myself one day. So as I was so actively involved in the creation process rather than just slavely cramming the perfect pencils


4. I want to ink only digitally, if that is a problem for somebody, because Im beginning to understand now that some old masters appreciate only inks that has been done to paper and with real ink so I would probably only be able to collaborate with a virgin mind who has no preset prejudices or "feelings" about what is better and proper or more respectable....

....and now, by all means I can understand this completely, digital inks can never compare to real inks -I also respect them thousand times more than digital inks, but I can personally only ink digitally now and thats that with me

If I can find somebody who's cool with that and dont see it as a problem, Im a very lucky girl :bounce:

Pens&Pixels
08-15-2006, 05:27 PM
....and now, by all means I can understand this completely, digital inks can never compare to real inks -I also respect them thousand times more than digital inks, but I can personally only ink digitally now and thats that with me

That's just retarded.

Gwlister
08-17-2006, 01:22 AM
Out of necessity, I ink all of my own stuff and I find that I am penciling AND inking at the same time, like I'm still working on the details in some areas pencil-wise but I know EXACTLY how things should look in other areas and can ink those spots.

I know it sounds very unorthodox and probably not a good practice but it all seems to work out in the end:

http://listerart.com/slideshow/gallery/album1/large/mb_page9.jpg

I still really dig the old school method of inking - brush, pen and an inkwell. I have a Wacom tablet and use it primarily to color my work in Photoshop but haven't had much success with digitally inking. I guess I like that raw, hand done feeling. I think it looks less 'manufactured' and more organic.

Don't know if this added much to the discussion...just my two cents on penciling and inking.