Digital Webbing Forums

Digital Webbing Forums (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/index.php)
-   Lettering Showcase (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   Let's talk about... handling art (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142599)

Jason Arthur 08-05-2009 02:21 PM

Let's talk about... handling art
 
So this week, let's talk about one of the most frustrating things an indie letterer has to face: artwork that isn't properly sized.

You'd think artists would know the size they need to work at by this point. If they're making money on this then they should have a working knowledge of the dimensions at which they can work.

So, let's hear it. Horror stories, backtalking artists, your last-second solutions. Spill them beans.

-- J

JimCampbell 08-05-2009 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonArthur
So this week, let's talk about one of the most frustrating things an indie letterer has to face: artwork that isn't properly sized.

The last four jobs I've had to do have all been drawn by artists (two of who are supposed to have worked for larger publishers like Image) who haven't understood the significance of the Live area. They've all filled the page to the full extent of the bleed, and then butted their panel borders up to the trim line.

Four of 'em in a row. When you point this out, you get a blank look followed by "Is that something you can fix at your end?"

What's worse, is that two of those b*stards have habitually composed their panels with the first speaker on the right. Three speaking characters and every frickin' time, they draw them in the opposite order to the order that they're speaking.

"But I put all that empty space on the left of the panel for the dialogue," they complain.

Yes. You did. And then you drew two complete characters in between the first speaker and the dead space, you steaming eejit.

Gaah!

Jim

(So glad I signed up for this forum. I feel better already.)

theflash 08-05-2009 03:19 PM

woo boy! i love this thread already!

you say you'd think they would know...but i've yet to have one single artist or colorist send me files sized correctly. ONE inker actually gets it right every time and with a smile on his face, beyond that...nada.

my horror story is funny, and pretty sad. i was lettering a book for some other small pressers, doing it pretty much for free. i think i got $50 a book for 24 pages, so that's like $2 a page. not completely free but close enough, and for the hassle...i did it for free trust me.

anyway, i'm getting pages and i'm having to re-size them of course, because the artist hadn't a clue about output file sizes or anything. he just "scanned it real big" and sent it off. he also had no concept of safe, trim, or bleed, and typically would work in, around, and beyond all those lines on the SAME PAGE making it a nightmare to re-size and keep everything correct. one panel in one corner is to the trim, another one right under that goes out to the bleed, etc and it just made my life hell when it came time to re-size letter and export.

but i did it. in the spirit of helping out some good people, i did it.

but then i start getting emails saying "Hey you're screwing up the pages. You cut off part of the panel!" i replied that yes, i did cut off a portion of the panel that had no meaningful art in it because there was no other way to bring it into my template and have it work right! (I also took the time to redraw the panel border in so you couldn't tell it was cut off, and it looked very natural. he also overlooked the fact that i fixed all the screwed up gutters they'd typically send me as well, making them all uniform and far more professional in appearance.)

they come back and say "Well the guy that's publishing the book says they don't want you using the template, just letter it exactly as we send it to you."

*sigh* so i replied that if they wanted the files the correct size, ie height and width, i needed to re-size it to the template for export. plus it makes my job a lot faster and all the pages come out the same size and are print ready. i also explained that if i lettered it at the size they sent it, they'd never re-size it down to print size and still have the letters look even remotely right.

then they got nasty. i got this scathing letter back saying so and so publisher has been doing comics for ages and they aren't some fly by night organization! they know what they're talking about just do it! now keep in mind that to this point i've been nothing but cordial, and i've done my very best to educate them as tot he process so they can at least understand where i'm coming from. couple that with the fact that this "publisher" hadn't so much as put out a single book. ever. so yeah, when i got the nasty letter it took me about an hour to come down out of orbit.

so i lettered the two remaining pages, my way, and resigned. i'm not about to get into an email flame war over something i'm not even really getting paid enough to warrant the hassle. i told them thanks, but i'm done, find another whipping boy.

about two months later i get an email out of the blue, and it's the writer creator of the book in question. he sent a very sincere apology, saying that the next letterer had the same issues i did, and only then did they realize i wasn't full of shit. in fact, the artist had to start paying attention to what he was drawing, and holy smokes the new letterer was using a template just like mine because in fact those pesky outsized pages don't reproduce worth a damn in print and they're an absolute pain in the ass to re-size after the fact.

so yeah, it ended up being pretty funny really. but it still raises my blood pressure just talking about it. it's bad enough dealing with stupid issues they create for you and fixing them basically for free, but then to have to hear that after trying to help...no thanks. i doubt anyone could pay me enough to deal with that crap.

theflash 08-05-2009 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimCampbell
When you point this out, you get a blank look followed by "Is that something you can fix at your end?"


lol that's freakin classic!!

r nelson 08-05-2009 04:58 PM

That is the EXACT part of Jim's post I was going to quote, Cary.

SO true... And what do we (well, I do anyways) always say?

I shouldn't HAVE to... *sigh* ... YES, I can fix it.

- Richard

JimCampbell 08-05-2009 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r nelson

I shouldn't HAVE to... *sigh* ... YES, I can fix it.

That's the thing, though, isn't it? You do that little mental calculation and work out that, yes, I could actually fix this in less time than it will take me to explain what's wrong with this page, never mind tell you how to actually put it right ...

Cheers!

Jim

Comix! 08-05-2009 06:04 PM

I was involved with a few issues of a title where the page files were, of course, not sized, and the proportions were also, of course, not correct. It really was not apparent if they were supposed to be bleed pages or not because of the layout of the panels on many of the pages. The editor said to do my best with it. He was a friend and I was helping them at the time for less than peanuts.

Sometime later at a show I met the inker of that book and I mentioned to him the frustration I'd had with it, and he said, "Oh yeah, that was the guy who did his pages using manga proportions."

theflash 08-05-2009 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comix!
Sometime later at a show I met the inker of that book and I mentioned to him the frustration I'd had with it, and he said, "Oh yeah, that was the guy who did his pages using manga proportions."

lol it's right about then that you really wish you had the dark side of the FORCE so you could just choke him where he stands! "oh yeah sorry we failed to mention that. didn't think you needed to know!" rrrrr

Thomas Mauer 08-06-2009 07:08 PM

This used to be a big problem, but then Popgun came along which was a great motivator to find ways to get artists to resize their own crap. This is the result, and it's been a breeze ever since (open in Photoshop to see the live area guides):

http://popguncomics.com/single-page-template.tif
http://popguncomics.com/spread-template.tif

Download them, share them, give them to every single artist you come into contact with.

Be aware that some printers/publishers require different bleeds, so add the canvas accordingly. These live area guides are the best solution for trades though.

I've done other templates for other formats, but the info in there seems to work out well enough.

Make sure that LINEART gets resized to printsize before its sent on to colorists. That's how you can avoid problems with missing or incorrect bleed art.

dickieH8 08-06-2009 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Mauer
This used to be a big problem, but then Popgun came along which was a great motivator to find ways to get artists to resize their own crap. This is the result, and it's been a breeze ever since (open in Photoshop to see the live area guides):

http://popguncomics.com/single-page-template.tif
http://popguncomics.com/spread-template.tif

Download them, share them, give them to every single artist you come into contact with.

Be aware that some printers/publishers require different bleeds, so add the canvas accordingly. These live area guides are the best solution for trades though.

I've done other templates for other formats, but the info in there seems to work out well enough.

Make sure that LINEART gets resized to printsize before its sent on to colorists. That's how you can avoid problems with missing or incorrect bleed art.


I was going to post and give an illustrator's perspective, which is (was) basically what Thomas already posted. I made these same templates myself in PS for my own use and have correspondingly sized ones as .ait files in Illustrator. Always seemed like a no brainer.

chaz

Gonzogoose 08-06-2009 10:33 PM

I'll have to check out the templates, but yeah, over the years, I've only worked with a handful of properly sized projects. The majority have no clue on trims, bleeds, etc., or proper sizes, or even proper proportions, and it sounds like I'm not alone. Heck, even artists I've worked with for years can't ever seem to send me properly sized pages even after me telling them what I need them to be.

That quote from Jim is something I hear all the time as well.

sv9cannon 08-06-2009 11:02 PM

This thread raises a question. And pardon me for my stupidity, but I'm new to lettering. This all started with trying to letter my own comic, which I must say was a rather pleasant experience, but anyways, here's the question.

Is there a standard size that the artist should do the pages in?

My artist scanned in his stuff at 300dpi at 11" x 15". I'm pretty sure the proportions are correct, but I'm not sure how this translates to a printed page.

The panel gutters are approximately a quarter inch at the outside of the page. And I made sure not to put any word balloons to close to the edge. Does all this sound right? I just keep hearing about the 11x17 art boards, which i know is the size of the page and not the drawing area.

L Jamal 08-07-2009 12:01 AM

Most of you are lucky, you're only letterers. I ink, letter and color so I see 3 times the crap that you do. I ask about the print size at the beginning of the project and automatically resize (via photoshop) the pages before I get to work. I work with a lot of small press guys, so they don't even notice the resizing I do.

If something is way out of proportion and I'm not inking it, then I ask for advice or have them do it. Right now, I'm grayscaling pages for a property that's been around for in comics for 25 years. You would think that these guys have been doing it for 25 years, so they have it down.... nope. Every project, I've done for them has been off.

I deal with artist on a regular basis for my Warmageddon stuff (www.warmageddon.com). It's mostly magazine sized, but recently I've branched out into a square format. I give my guys the ratios at the beginning. I tell them the DPI to scan it at and I deal with all the image processing from there. Give me a 300 DPI scan at full size and I'm a happy man. most of the time.

Thomas Mauer 08-07-2009 09:06 AM

One thing I've learned is that the majority of artists aren't technically minded and don't really want to learn the nuts and bolts either. They just want to draw. So making printsize specs and how to get there as easy as possible is the best solution.

To that end, don't confuse them with the trim line. All artists need to know is that when their pages are resized to printsize, their panels need to be in the live area, and their bleed art needs to go right up to the document edge.

If you introduce the trim line and tell them stuff about the bleed, you'll often have the problem of their bleed art going right up to the trim line, and that's it. Not ideal, of course.

Ever since my previous templates were distilled into the ones linked above, the need for further explanations has been minimal. Out of about 300 artists over the last 2 years working on Popgun, I've only had 1 who didn't get it by reading the instructions. After a little more hand holding, he got it as well.

So now I don't even bother to resize except for a few rare instances when it's minor stuff and not worth the bother. I just send the template again and ask them to do it properly.

Thomas Mauer 08-07-2009 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sv9cannon
This thread raises a question. And pardon me for my stupidity, but I'm new to lettering. This all started with trying to letter my own comic, which I must say was a rather pleasant experience, but anyways, here's the question.

Is there a standard size that the artist should do the pages in?

My artist scanned in his stuff at 300dpi at 11" x 15". I'm pretty sure the proportions are correct, but I'm not sure how this translates to a printed page.

The panel gutters are approximately a quarter inch at the outside of the page. And I made sure not to put any word balloons to close to the edge. Does all this sound right? I just keep hearing about the 11x17 art boards, which i know is the size of the page and not the drawing area.

Tell your artist to scan at a minimum of 400dpi. 400-600dpi is the norm as it gives you more detail in fine lineart.

Keep in mind that standard comic size is 6.875x10.4375" (or 6.875x10.5" if you want to be on the safe side or not deal with too many fractions).

In Photoshop, create an 11x17" and an 11x15" file.

Resize both images to 6.875" width (comic size) and you'll get the following heights:

11x17" = 6.875x10.625"
11x15" = 6.875x9.375"

The 11x17" board just needs a little bit trimmed off at the bottom if you resize from the width.

The 11x15" board is missing 1.0625" document height after resizing from the width.

To get around this problem, you could resize from the height. You'd get the following:

11x15" = 7.655x10.4375"

As you can see, that leaves you with 0.78" more width than standard size, so live area guides have to be ruled differently on 11x15" and 11x17" boards.

If you don't want to do too much math, here's how:
  • Create a 6.875x10.4375" file with a white background.
  • Draw a 6x9.4375" box and center it. Change the fill color to black.
  • Deselect the top 6x9" of this box, so only the 6x0.4375" part at the bottom is selected and change the fill color to gray (that's how you get the properly laid out 6x9" live area version onto the template without a calculator).
FOR 11x17" BOARDS:
  • Resize the document to 11" wide
  • Add canvas at the BOTTOM to get a 17" height (anchor at top)
  • measured top margin: 0.8"
  • measured side margins: 0.7"
  • measured bottom margin (9" live area height): 1.807"
  • measured bottom margin (9.4375" live area height): 1.107"
FOR 11x15" BOARDS:
  • Resize the document to 15" high
  • Add canvas to get an 11" width (anchor at center)
  • measured top margin: 0.72"
  • measured side margins: 1.19"
  • measured bottom margin (9" live area height): 1.347"
  • measured bottom margin (9.4375" live area height): 0.72"

Depending on what kind of paper you work on, you rule these lines, decide which live area height on the final page you want to stick to, and that's how you get your properly sized live area.

After this, all the artist needs to do is:
  • Have all outer panel borders fall onto the live area guides.
  • Keep all essential artwork inside the live area.
  • Extend all potential bleed art to the edge of the art board.

Resizing becomes a snap, you won't even need those above templates, and the pages will always be at the correct size with no bleed art problems whatsoever.

Of course if you're drawing for different print dimensions, you'd have to measure the margins again after the above method. Shouldn't be a big problem though.

t_orzechowski 08-07-2009 04:25 PM

Fantastic! This should be posted as boilerplate at NinjaLettering, as well as somewhere here in the Forums! Thank you so much!

Kep! 08-07-2009 04:54 PM

I agree. It's pinned for cause.

I have given clients a guide for years on how to send me the art...including the sizes I expect. It makes it clear how to do it. What I also do to encourage this is suggest they will be charged more if I have to do it...it's something I'm perfectly capable of doing, and I am happy to, but it takes time and that means it costs money. Most folks send me the correct sizes right away now.

Clem Robins 08-07-2009 10:39 PM

Marvel and DC and Image are great about sending properly sized artwork. the smaller publishers, less so. which is unfortunate for them; if they got the artwork right, and used a bounding box, they could set up the pages in InDesign automatically.

Scribbly 08-08-2009 03:54 AM

Quote:

=Thomas Mauer]One thing I've learned is that the majority of artists aren't technically minded and don't really want to learn the nuts and bolts either. They just want to draw. So making printsize specs and how to get there as easy as possible is the best solution.
You have a good point here.
The 99% of the artists don’t even know how to calculate
the balloon’s size in a panel page.
More than less, they know, or are interested in resize the full page.
Somebody else will take care of that. :whistlin:

Quote:

= Kep! ] I'm perfectly capable of doing, and I am happy to, but it takes time and that means it costs money. Most folks send me the correct sizes right away now.
This is the same for the artists.
It cost money and time for them too.

Clockman89 08-08-2009 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbly
This is the same for the artists.
It cost money and time for them too.

But if they got it right in the first place, it wouldn't cost anyone any extra time or money.

*whistles and steps back out of forum*

Scribbly 08-08-2009 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clockman89
But if they got it right in the first place, it wouldn't cost anyone any extra time or money.

True.
But many of the folks don't even like to scan their own artwork.

Not talking about the ones who don't even care in buying a proper scanner.
Now, tell them about buying a graphic program for resizing their artwork.

Thomas Mauer 08-08-2009 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbly
This is the same for the artists.
It cost money and time for them too.

The difference is that if artists rely on others to deal with their wrongly sized pages, they are wasting not only that other person's time, they're wasting theirs as well.

With missing bleed art, the resized page has to go back to the artist and they have to go into Photoshop to wing it digitally. If pages are totally out of whack, it'll have to be their final decision how to rework panels, or in the worst case scenario they have to redraw entire pages.

Even if all pages are correctly sized and you just need to rely on a simple Photoshop action to output printsize pages, relying on others holds up the production chain: Either the colorist or the letterer has to wait until the other guy has found the time to do it and send them on.

Resizing pages right after they've been scanned in and cleaned up is the most efficient way to go about it.

Jason Arthur 08-08-2009 09:23 AM

That's one of the things that really screwed me up as an artist (yeah, I used to draw too). I used to work at print size and drew my ass off. Loved it. Then one day, at a comic convention, someone tells me that everyone works on 11x17 sheets of bristol.

So naturally I switched and my work suffered for it. I wasn't used to drawing so large and should have just stopped right there, but I spent years trying to adjust to larger size drawing.

Now I can draw one panel at a time if I want. Scan it in and assemble a page. But I letter so many other people's work now that it's hard to find time for my own art.

If only I could find a way to make time go slower all around me...

-- J

Clem Robins 08-08-2009 06:52 PM

if that's your problem, jason, you should consider doing what Gil Kane and many others did: draw your pictures at reproduction size, and then blow them up to original art size. slap the xerox on a light box, and finish them in ink. that's how Gil worked for the last twenty years of his life.

Vincent Giaranno's book "Comics Crash Course" outlines a slightly different method.

Kep! 08-10-2009 10:33 AM

Scribbly, I think what everyone here is trying to say is "it ain't my job man, but I'll gladly do it for a price". Crass as that sounds, it's true. It is the artist's job (or artists' jobs) to make sure their work is ready for primetime. As the letterer, I'm the last person who should be trying to fix whacked out pages...the penciler should do it, the inker has it in his own best interest to do it and the colorist is ALREADY doing the work...he might as well save it correctly and call it a day. If the art is not ready for print by the time it gets to me, then they have got serious issues with their work-flow. At the end of the production cycle is NOT the time to fix something as basic as wonky artwork.

Kep! 08-10-2009 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clem Robins
if that's your problem, jason, you should consider doing what Gil Kane and many others did: draw your pictures at reproduction size, and then blow them up to original art size. slap the xerox on a light box, and finish them in ink. that's how Gil worked for the last twenty years of his life.

Vincent Giaranno's book "Comics Crash Course" outlines a slightly different method.

Dario Carrasco and several others now do the same thing. However, with the internet beingg the main medium for communication and the trasfering of art files, I don't think most even bother to upsize again after the scan, figuring the inker will take care of it. And, of course, with computer inking coming into it's own, it's completely possible for there to be no real ink (and if vector no real sizes) in the final product anyway.

Scribbly 08-10-2009 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kep!
Scribbly, I think what everyone here is trying to say is "it ain't my job man, but I'll gladly do it for a price". Crass as that sounds, it's true. It is the artist's job (or artists' jobs) to make sure their work is ready for primetime. As the letterer, I'm the last person who should be trying to fix whacked out pages...the penciler should do it, the inker has it in his own best interest to do it and the colorist is ALREADY doing the work...he might as well save it correctly and call it a day. If the art is not ready for print by the time it gets to me, then they have got serious issues with their work-flow. At the end of the production cycle is NOT the time to fix something as basic as wonky artwork.

Kep!, understood, but.

Actually, it is up to the person who manage and
is in "charge of the project" to require about the format, size and resolution in
what the final artwork should be presented and sent.
And is "up to him" to decide who is the person, as part of his art team, who's going to do this.

Blame them, and not the artist, when the artwork came in incorrect size,
resolution or format.
Because, is what they are requesting the artists to send is what the artists
are giving to you.
And not otherwise.
Having this person, the manager, doing his work right and beig clever and especific.
Not one, including the artists, should have problems in the line work.

L Jamal 08-10-2009 11:59 AM

Ultimately, it really depends on your relationship with your editor. I do a lot of fair amount of work for Mirage and have known my editor for over 10 years. When he sends me pages in the wrong format, I just fix it and keep moving. Since I'm doing graytones for them, I'm in there mucking with the file any way, so I just have a action that fixes all the files as I start. I email them the files as I finish them and no one has ever complained, so I continue to do so.

Gonzogoose 08-10-2009 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbly
Kep!, understood, but.

Actually, it is up to the person who manage and
is in "charge of the project" to require about the format, size and resolution in
what the final artwork should be presented and sent.
And is "up to him" to decide who is the person, as part of his art team, who's going to do this.

Blame them, and not the artist, when the artwork came in incorrect size,
resolution or format.
Because, is what they are requesting the artists to send is what the artists
are giving to you.
And not otherwise.

You're right in that the publisher, creator, printer, etc. should specify correct size, but in most cases it's a safe bet you'll need it at standard size for a regular comic. That's just common sense. But regardless, it's still best if the artist delivers whatever that size is at the beginning, like Kep so eloquently explained.

JimCampbell 08-10-2009 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbly

Blame them, and not the artist, when the artwork came in incorrect size,
resolution or format.

I can't agree with that. American comics are a pretty standard size -- the only thing that tends to vary significantly is the Live area. I don't think it's asking a lot of any artist to understand the nuts and bolts of their profession.

I recently received some B/W pages to use as positionals until the colorist got the final pages done, only to discover that these were: JPEGs, grayscale, and hadn't had the pencils properly erased from the boards after inking. Oh, and they were the wrong proportions.

I'm afraid I contacted the editor and suggested in no uncertain terms that if this particular artist expected to be paid like a professional, they should most definitely learn to submit their artwork like a professional.

Some things are fundamental basics that you're entitled to expect a professional to know how to do, and to actually do without being asked. If I hire a plumber, I don't expect him to come round to my house and then ask to borrow my tools because he didn't bring any of his own.

Cheers

Jim

Scribbly 08-10-2009 11:00 PM

[QUOTE]
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimCampbell
I can't agree with that. American comics are a pretty standard size -- the only thing that tends to vary significantly is the Live area. I don't think it's asking a lot of any artist to understand the nuts and bolts of their profession.

You'll be surprised in knowing that different publishers are requesting different specs and formats and they varies according their own criteria and convenience.
More, when they are independent as is mentioned above.
From the full size (??)1200 dpi tiff line art, to the 11x17 JPG grayscale at 300 dpi. or 6.875x10.625 line art or grayscale at 600 dpi.
Or any variation of these.
Over that, as is mentioned above, some artists are reluctant of buying a scanner, less than, of buying a graphic program for resize their artwork.
Better for them, is to put all these pages in a box and FedEx to the publisher.

Quote:

I recently received some B/W pages to use as positionals until the colorist got the final pages done, only to discover that these were: JPEGs, grayscale, and hadn't had the pencils properly erased from the boards after inking. Oh, and they were the wrong proportions.
So, "the inker" was the one who sent to you these pages with non erased pencils, not the artist.
Quote:

I'm afraid I contacted the editor and suggested in no uncertain terms that if this particular artist expected to be paid like a professional, they should most definitely learn to submit their artwork like a professional.
So the editor, he didn't knew what quality and format of artwork was sent to you.

Which means that you are working with an artist, who is an ignorant about printing formats, and inker who don't erase the pages after inking them.
And an editor who's very negligent about everything. :confused:

Fred Duran 08-10-2009 11:56 PM

I'm a writer (or so I tell myself). I'm definitely no artist and I can barely even dream of calling myself a letterer (trying though!). But even still, I don't see the argument here.

If my script is messed up, the penciler either A) gives me a similarly messed up page or B) doesn't draw it at all (which is probably better for both of us in the long run). Let me be clear - I'm in NO WAY comparing writing a comic page to penciling or inking or coloring or lettering it, but it's essentially an assembly line, right? If we were making a car instead of a comic, and you were making the engine, wouldn't you want - even NEED - to know the size specifications, and how everything fits together? And moreover, if you got them wrong, could you really expect the guys down at painting and detailing to fix it?

-Fred

Jason Arthur 08-11-2009 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Duran
If we were making a car instead of a comic, and you were making the engine, wouldn't you want - even NEED - to know the size specifications, and how everything fits together? And moreover, if you got them wrong, could you really expect the guys down at painting and detailing to fix it?

-Fred

Excellent analogy.

-- J

The DarkMind 08-11-2009 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Duran
I'm a writer (or so I tell myself). I'm definitely no artist and I can barely even dream of calling myself a letterer (trying though!). But even still, I don't see the argument here.

If my script is messed up, the penciler either A) gives me a similarly messed up page or B) doesn't draw it at all (which is probably better for both of us in the long run). Let me be clear - I'm in NO WAY comparing writing a comic page to penciling or inking or coloring or lettering it, but it's essentially an assembly line, right? If we were making a car instead of a comic, and you were making the engine, wouldn't you want - even NEED - to know the size specifications, and how everything fits together? And moreover, if you got them wrong, could you really expect the guys down at painting and detailing to fix it?

-Fred

Holy crap Fred... I think that's the most intelligent thing I've ever heard you say :w00t: I'm awe struck... which means I'll have to read your posts more often now :nyah:

This analogy should be made into it's own post and then stickied in every forum across the net.

Kep! 08-11-2009 09:30 AM

Spot on correct. Everyone comes to the table with their skill set. Comic books, like jazz, are not a directed process (a leader, sure...but that's different). Each artist (writer, letterer, penciler, et al.) is expected to know how to ply their craft and work with the others of the team (A clarinetist must know rhythm though he is not a percussionist, yes?). A writer is supposed to understand that ten panels on a page with 100 words each is not correct...unless you have a really brilliant reason...a colorist MUST know that books are printed in CMYK (how often do we as letterers have to fix this? Three times last year alone for me), a letterer must know where the live is as well as parallel lines are going to cause a moire pattern, and a penciller damn well should know how to line an art board so it is the right ratio of size. Scanning is a talent any penciler is foolish NOT to know because it directly effects the quality of their work...but many choose to let someone else make them look like chumps. But a too large or over dpi'd scan is nothing compared to a mishappen under dpi scan...which happens when the artist in question doesn't take responsibility for themselves. Take responsibility. If you don't know how to do it, find someone who does...learn...evolve.

Scribbly 08-11-2009 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kep!
Spot on correct. Everyone comes to the table with their skill set. Comic books, like jazz, are not a directed process (a leader, sure...but that's different). Each artist (writer, letterer, penciler, et al.) is expected to know how to ply their craft and work with the others of the team (A clarinetist must know rhythm though he is not a percussionist, yes?). A writer is supposed to understand that ten panels on a page with 100 words each is not correct...unless you have a really brilliant reason...a colorist MUST know that books are printed in CMYK (how often do we as letterers have to fix this? Three times last year alone for me), a letterer must know where the live is as well as parallel lines are going to cause a moire pattern, and a penciller damn well should know how to line an art board so it is the right ratio of size. Scanning is a talent any penciler is foolish NOT to know because it directly effects the quality of their work...but many choose to let someone else make them look like chumps. But a too large or over dpi'd scan is nothing compared to a mishappen under dpi scan...which happens when the artist in question doesn't take responsibility for themselves. Take responsibility. If you don't know how to do it, find someone who does...learn...evolve.

I wonder if, you ever thought why?
After the artist is sending the first page in a wrong size/format.
Maybe for ignorance, negligence, convenience or because he's merely
an unresponsible person.
Call this "phenomena" as you want.

Why, when the person in "charge of the project", call him manager, coordinator,
editor or whatsoever, why when he is receiving the first page in a
wrong format and size.
Because is him the first one who’s receiving the artwork, not you.
Why this person in charge is not calling immediately the artist/s in question and
requesting from him to correct this problem and send the total of
the remained pages in a proper format?
Which would solve the situation immediately.

But, apparently this persona never would do that.
Or at least, he never did it in the pointed cases.
Why do you think this never happen? This looks very coincidental isn't it?
Apparently, this "phenomena" is very spreaded.

Receiving the artwork in wrong format and instead to
asking the artist to correct it, or correcting it for himself,
this persona in charge is oblivious in sending the whole
work in wrong format to the next person in the line.
Maybe, you have the answer for this already.

Jason Arthur 08-11-2009 12:16 PM

Writers know jack shit about page sizes, resolution and the like. That's what they pay the artist for. To turn the work in for COMIC SIZED ART. Now, if this is for an American comic then it's 6.875 x 10.4375 and that should be well known to artists.

Yet somehow I think every letterer in this forum knows that size requirement and probably only 35-50% of the artists on here do.

So yeah, we'll fix it. For a fee.

-- J

L Jamal 08-11-2009 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonArthur
Yet somehow I think every letterer in this forum knows that size requirement and probably only 35-50% of the artists on here do.

That's quite sad when you think about it.

Thomas Mauer 08-11-2009 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribbly
I wonder if, you ever thought why?
After the artist is sending the first page in a wrong size/format.
Maybe for ignorance, negligence, convenience or because he's merely
an unresponsible person.
Call this "phenomena" as you want.

Why, when the person in "charge of the project", call him manager, coordinator,
editor or whatsoever, why when he is receiving the first page in a
wrong format and size.
Because is him the first one who’s receiving the artwork, not you.
Why this person in charge is not calling immediately the artist/s in question and
requesting from him to correct this problem and send the total of
the remained pages in a proper format?
Which would solve the situation immediately.

But, apparently this persona never would do that.
Or at least, he never did it in the pointed cases.
Why do you think this never happen? This looks very coincidental isn't it?
Apparently, this "phenomena" is very spreaded.

Receiving the artwork in wrong format and instead to
asking the artist to correct it, or correcting it for himself,
this persona in charge is oblivious in sending the whole
work in wrong format to the next person in the line.
Maybe, you have the answer for this already.

You're arguing that passing the buck is okay.

Every person involved in a project should be fiercely proud of their work, and should make sure from the outset that what they're doing is 100% correct--that no one down the line can fuck shit up because they know they've done a correct job.

This means that artists need to talk to their editors or publishers to find out what their size requirements are before they even start.

It's not the responsibility of a project leader, editor, or underpaid & overworked letterer to harp on the same old points again and again with the same artists continuing to not try to improve their knowledge (or colorists who continue to send RGB files when they know they're supposed to send CMYK).

JimCampbell 08-11-2009 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Mauer

This means that artists need to talk to their editors or publishers to find out what their size requirements are before they even start.

Damn right. I mean, presumably, the artist(s) have confirmed with the editor what the deadline and the page rate is ... if the editor hasn't explicitly confirmed the artwork size, would it kill the artist to fucking ask?

The key point here -- I think -- is professional courtesy. It takes the artist no longer to draw the artwork at the right size than it does to draw it at the wrong size. The same is not true for the colorist, or the letterer, or whichever poor schmuck down the production chain notices the problem. We have to devote additional time for which we are not getting paid to sorting this shit out.

Mind you, I actually had an artist and a colorist flat out argue with me. The art was sized to the full bleed, but they'd treated the Trim line as if it was the Live boundary. They both went to the editor and said I was wrong and, in the end, I had to actually find a scan of a page of pencils on official Marvel board, marked up with Trim, Bleed and Live, caption it and send it to them.

That wasn't a total waste of my time at all.

Cheers!

Jim


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:55 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1997-2015 Digital Webbing, LLC