Digital Webbing Forums

Digital Webbing Forums (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/index.php)
-   Creator Community (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   Kickstarter 2012 Stats (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165884)

amon 04-01-2013 06:03 PM

Well, not since Chaos! Comics went out of business.

Screwtape Jenkins 04-01-2013 06:05 PM

Anyway, I think we've successfully established that not everyone agrees with my take on kickstarter. For the rest of the conversation, how about we just take that as granted?

Renae, I wanted to ask you some questions about how stuff works once the campaign is completed. To wit:

1) How are your pledges and their level of backing and their rewards tracked on kickstarter? Or is that stuff up to you to organize?

(I could see it being really difficult to go back and see who pledged what and whether their pledge came through and what their rewards are and what their address is...etc)

2) Once your campaign is funded and the KS ends, does KS cut you a check or deposit money in an account, or is that at your discretion?

3) How soon after the KS ends is the money transferred?

Basically I'm just concerned about the part when the KS is over and I've got hundreds of orders to ship to hundreds of addresses. I'm concerned about how well I'd be able to keep up with that without a lot of help. That's not really my bailiwick.

CHWolf 04-01-2013 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz (Post 1792481)
I'd love to help run it with you, but then I'd have no time to draw comics!:D

But of COURSE I'll help you with the setup, and give input (if you want it). I don't want money though, just want to help! Are you thinking about giving it a try? If you give me a few details I can help lay out a scenario as an option too.

Oh, no prob. The whole idea is kind of screwed for me atm since if I can't use the site, I don't think I can retrieve backer info, etc. :laugh:

paul brian deberry 04-01-2013 09:18 PM

to bad there isn't a regular mod hanging around to sticky this thread.

this post alone is gold.

Quote:

....$6,000 would cover creative costs, production, shipping, fees, a buffer (for dropped pledges, returns, re-shipping).

If your Core Reward is your physical book copy, and it costs around $7 to fulfill completely to a US backer (printing, shipping to you, shipping/packaging to backer) Then I would put your physical book at $15 tier with a digital download of it (and any other perks that are low/no cost to add).

In that case, if you sold nothing but that $15 tier (which you'll get pledges higher than that, but just for estimates sake) You'd have to sell 400 copies.

I'd offer something like:

$1 Thank You
$5 Digital Download
$15 Physical Copy + All of the above
$25 Sketchbook (or writers book, whatever you want to call it) + All of the above
$50 Signed copy with bookmarks/magnets (flat merchandise that is easy to ship with the actual book)
$125 Cameo in book plus all of the above
$250 Help you write a scene/create a character/creature, etc (anything that includes a personal experience. OR offer up a sketch from the artist)


That's really all you need to get started. You can add in more later if you wanted.

In case it's an issue, it's okay to charge more for items on Kickstarter if it's necessary (it's more like Etsy than Amazon. There's more time, effort, and care that goes into the process, so it is worth the money) just try and make it worthwhile for your backers (add some digital content. Pin ups/Wallpapers). People have common misconceptions that they MUST charge according to what publishers charge per book. In your case it's impossible, but people just want to see your vision come to life)

I would start with 1 issue (or even fund the last half of the first issue for a 3K campaign) and just see how it goes from there. If you do great with Issue 1 reaching backers in time, Issue #2 (or a smaller 48 pg GN) will be that much easier. If that goes well, you can step up to a GN.

Full on funding goal for 3 issues would be 18K and for all 6 would be around 30K, which are riskier until you get a following. 3-6 K are completely possible though, as long as you do a great job with that video and representation on the page.....
I've consulted on a couple Kickstarter campaigns recently and I can tell you (what a quoted above) is everything you need to know about running a successful campaign.

russbrett 04-01-2013 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792406)
I guess I could go a book at a time, and just try to get each one done before kickstarting the next. That's what russbret said he was going to try to do and maybe that's the best idea.

Sidekicks is a 3 issue mini-series. I paid my artist $600 upfront to do 4 fully colored and lettered pages, plus a cover to be used as a Preview.

As the art rolls in I'm updating various websites where I've set up "Official Threads" (like I've done here), as well as the Facebook page and Twitter feed.

Once the Preview is done I plan on printing about a dozen physical copies (maybe full size, maybe half, haven't decided yet) to pass around to people who would likely back the project but who might not feel comfortable signing up for Kickstarter to donate (basically, pre-orders). This will help lower the Pledge Goal amount (which is double good because the "pre-order" are not subject to the ~8% fees associated with KS and Amazon).

The Preview pages will also be used on the KS page to let backers see what the finished comic will look like (I picked a 4-page sequence that just defines the book perfectly - if you saw my "Question for the Artists" thread you'll have seen the final page in that sequence).

I'm also going to all my local comic book shops (and some a bit outside of local) and showing them the art so far and questioning them about the possibility of putting a Preview book and flyer in their stores once the KS campaign is launched. So far, of the three store owners I've talked to, all three said yes and they would like to help in any way they can.

I'm a bit torn on stretch goals at the moment. I think instead I might just declare that any additional funds beyond the Pledge Goal will go towards bringing down the Pledge Goal of issue 2.

russbrett 04-01-2013 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz (Post 1792479)
You could choose to offer regular merchandise that requires it's own separate shipping, but be aware of the extra shipping/packaging costs involved and price the reward accordingly ( I usually say to AT LEAST double to fulfillment cost to get the reward price, because you NEED enough money to go towards creative costs/fees, etc to make it worthwhile). So a T-shirt may end up being WAY too expensive for a backer.

To add to this point, among the many KS campaigns I've looked at, the T-Shirt reward is very rarely pledged at.



Quote:

Not that I'm aware of. I actually just had this conversation with another Kickstarter that wanted to put the script as it's own reward. (he decided to do it anyway, and not one backer has gotten it)

I would suggest putting your script, production notes, sketches, etc into the "Sketch Book" (or whatever you choose to call it) and make the books on CreateSpace.com. The books should cost you around $2 each to get to you (that's for 100+pages w/color cover). I did the Womanthology sketchbook with them, and it turned out great.
If you're worried about the resolution of printing an actual "Sketch Book" you can also go the PDF route. That's what I plan on doing. No print costs. No shipping headaches. And it doesn't cost anything. Money straight to your content costs.

Quote:

Also I ABSOLUTELY get the "no time" thing. But be aware too that a Campaign is very time consuming. You need to spend time setting up interviews if you can, talk to blogs to highlight you, emailing people, networking, etc. Also consider buying Facebook Ads if you have funding now to put towards your campaign. But all of this is secondary to using time to making the BEST video you can make. That is the most important aspect.
"No Time" doesn't begin to describe it. Sidekicks is taking up nearly all of my free time. Updating websites, Facebook, Twitter. Making as many contacts as I can. Maintaining a dialogue with my artist to keep everything on schedule.

It's a lot of work. BUT... if, when all is said and done, I raise the money I need to make a comic book that I created... Totally Worth It!

russbrett 04-01-2013 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul brian deberry (Post 1792515)
to bad there isn't a regular mod hanging around to sticky this thread.

We should probably just make a How-To Kickstarter thread and copy everything into there.

Evan Henry 04-01-2013 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792499)
I'm pretty sure every comic book sold has advertising costs, shipping costs, and production costs. Despite that, I've yet to see a 22 page comic book priced at $15 outside of kickstarter. Have you?

You completely failed to understand my point. Again.

Physical copies of comics from larger publishers are cheaper in almost every respect, on a per-copy basis, to manufacture and deliver to consumers. Instead of distributing through a middleman to the 3,000 LCS's with a Diamond account in the United States, Kickstarter creators are personally shipping every single copy in an individual mailer to everyone who pre-ordered. Instead of printing 50,000 copies on a wholesale basis through a company like Quebecor for roughly 40-60 cents per copy, you will probably be working on a few hundred copies (a thousand or more if you're lucky) through a POD service like Lulu or Mimeo for about... how much, again?

Well, here's some info on Lulu, since I happen to have it close to hand. Their standard price to print a 24-page comic (B+W, color front cover with a saddle stitch on mid-quality paper; short run) is $2.89 as of May 2012, before you even take into account the cost of getting the comic from Lulu to you so you can distribute it to your customers. Now, I don't know how many copies you have to order before that starts to get lower, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to get that much better, considering that even the more successful Kickstarter campaigns are usually working with pretty small sales numbers (and many of them with multiple books/issues at that). I paid Lulu twenty dollars to ship me ten copies of an anthology I was in several years ago. That's one cost that isn't going to go down with more copies.

Now, if you are very, very, ridiculously successful in your campaign, and can manage to swing 2,500 copies or more in sales, you might be able to get a decent price (60-70 cents per copy) from a company like Morgan Printing (that's a number I got from Fred van Lente, a person who most Kickstarter creators... well, aren't). POD services are generally cheaper than the large printers until you get waaaaaaaay up there in numbers. For either, $1 per copy is about standard if we're talking about somewhere in the 5,000-10,000 range. Anything significantly lower than that is doing some serious statistical outlying.

You're making the mistake of assuming that because a comic you receive from a Kickstarter campaign more or less feels like, looks like, and is printed on the same shiny paper as Justice League or Savage Dragon, that the costs involved are identical. They are not, and any assumed "profit margin" you derive from that premise is automatically invalid.

Aaron Walther 04-02-2013 12:22 AM

It cost me about $20 (give or take a dollar depending on the region) to send a 176 page graphic novel and three 11x17 prints to international bidders.

Which, by the way, I was giving away for a $35 bid. ($30 for domestic + $5 for international)

Lesson learned. Renae isn't kidding when she says international shipping is a bitch.

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 12:22 AM

Was that screed supposed to make a $15 price tag on a 22 page comic book reasonable? Because if so, it didn't work.

I have printing costs myself. My book cost me about 3 bucks to print at kablaam, and I've sunk about $3000 into my production costs. Despite that, I can't put that book on a shelf and sell it for $15. Even if it would help me get my money back, I can't do it. Because regardless of what my costs were, the book's not worth $15. The market has firmly decided on this - no brand-new 22 page book is worth $15.

Again, reasonable, expected price margins in everyday life are around 15% or less. KS users are typically trying to make back their money on a much smaller amount of product, but the end result of that is still price gouging on the consumer end. You don't sell stuff for what it costs you to make, you sell it for what the market will bear. Otherwise, you won't sell anything.

If your business model requires you to sell a 22 page comic book for $15, your business model is utterly broken. Such a model would of course fail, except for the fact that most consumers know that kickstarter is, in most cases, essentially a charity. They're paying what they're paying to support the artist, not for the product given in return. As such, the margins on kickstarter go FAR BEYOND the margins of a simple sales transaction.

You argue as if your decision to engage in an irrational and broken business model is a fair cost to pass onto consumers. The logical conclusion of that argument is if I decided to only print one issue of my comic, I could charge $3005 for it, in order to cover my costs and yield myself a 2 dollar profit. When asked by a consumer why the hell my 22 page comic costs $3005, I would explain to him "Oh, don't worry. It's not price-gouging. I just decided not to print enough copies to allow me to sell the book at a cheaper per unit price. So the $3005 price tag is perfectly fair, despite the fact that it's about a thousand times the price the market has set for a 22 page comic book." I'm sorry, that argument is ridiculous. Your costs aren't the consumer's problem. If you arranged your business such that you have to sell a 22 page comic for $15, you fucked up. And it's not the consumer's problem to fix your fuck up.

That's why I said as a business model qua business model, kickstarter is simply price gouging. As an endeavor which is understood to be, at bottom, a charity, it's perfectly acceptable.

Thus, since it's only acceptable as a charity, it should only be used by proper targets of charity. Rich/famous producers are not proper targets of charity, thus, IMO, they shouldn't be on kickstarter.

You write as if I have a problem with kickstarter in general. I don't, as I've said several times. I have a problem with rich/famous people using kickstarter.

Evan Henry 04-02-2013 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792533)
The market has firmly decided on this - no brand-new 22 page book is worth $15

It has? Because if so, you're going to need to inform the market that this is the case. It probably isn't aware at the moment, since many Kickstarter campaigns have reached and surpassed their funding goals at exactly that price point.

The point being: a 22-page comic is worth $15 if (and only if) people are willing to pay $15 for it. If I managed to convince some gullible individual to buy a bag of my lawn clippings for fifty grand, then that is, by definition, a bag full of $50,000 worth of primo dead grass.

Quote:

If your business model requires you to sell a 22 page comic book for $15, your business model is utterly broken.
Now, this is an opinion, so I can't tell you you're objectively wrong about that. Let's keep the goalpost exactly where it was -- I told you you were wrong that Kickstarter creators are rolling in 500% returns. Until you can point me in the direction of someone who knows for certain and can tell me that that's the case, I'm going to go with the balance of the evidence and assume it isn't. You can draw whatever conclusions you like from the facts, but you can't just pull facts out of thin air.

Personally, I can't really equate the idea of successful, funded projects with the concept of a "broken" business model, but that's just me.

Quote:

Such a model would of course fail, except for the fact that most consumers know that kickstarter is, in most cases, essentially a charity.
Eh... it is? I'm not too sure about that one. If Kickstarter is essentially a charity, how are all these one-percenters you're going on about managing to get their books funded? Obviously not out of sympathy or from altruistic contributors, so...?

If rich (comic book rich, which is a little different from regular rich) and famous people are moving product on Kickstarter, then this very strongly implies that it isn't a charity. Despite what you may wish, consumers have decided that Kickstarter is just another marketplace. Ultimately. they are the only ones whose opinions matter.

Quote:

the margins on kickstarter go FAR BEYOND the margins of a simple sales transaction.
I don't think you've established that, unless you're operating under a different definition of "margin" than the rest of the world.

Aaron Walther 04-02-2013 01:00 AM

Jenkins, as you've probably been able to infer from our previous interaction, I think you are doing yourself a disservice if you think of Kickstarter as charity.

People want to feel like they are supporting an artist and maybe even be a part of the creative process, but like any "traditional" investor, they expect a reasonable return on their investment, which in this case is a desirable product.

You can't just throw up a Kickstarter and ask strangers to support your dreams without having something that people would pay money for.

I'm not making a judgement on your comic, I haven't seen it, but by your own admission you don't have a fan base to support you. That means it's going to take a lot of work to get the word out about your Kickstarter. You're not going to have a large amount of people that know you and want to support you the way, let's say...Gail Simone has.

Renae has given tons of great advice, which I know you're going to follow. The only advice I would add is that it would be better to start thinking about your Kickstarter Campaign as a business investment rather than a charity.

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 01:03 AM

A successful kickstarter campaign is not a successful business model; it's a successful charity event masquerading as a successful business model. It succeeds not because KS is producing comic books that people think are worth 5 times what they for a Marvel or DC book, but because they were willing to pay 5 times what those books cost to support the artist.

If you think it's a successful business model, try producing a book to put on shelves with the same production costs and the same print run, and see how well you do without the understood charity component of KS.

Go ahead. Spend $3000 on a 22 page book you only expect to sell 400 copies of, then sell that book for $15, and see how well you do on the open market.

We both know you'd fail anywhere outside of KS, because KS is a charity. It's not people buying a product, it's people supporting a cause. And because they're supporting a cause, they're willing to pay prices the open market wouldn't bear.

That's why I think it's just kind of gross when rich people use that system. I don't care if the margin is 500% or 50% (and that point's not worth arguing about for serious people). If you're not a proper target of charity, you shouldn't use a system which is structured like a charity. That's all I'm saying.

Evan Henry 04-02-2013 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792539)
not because KS is producing comic books that people think are worth 5 times what they for a Marvel or DC book, but because they were willing to pay 5 times what those books cost to support the artist.

Those two things are the same. An objective measure of value does not exist. The closest thing we have is a rough average of what people are willing to pay for a given item. Whether they're paying that additional cash to support an artist, to feel magnanimous and generous, or because they feel like blowing their money for no reason, they are getting something out of it that, for them, is worth the investment.

Kickstarter is not a charity. Charities have no profit margin, 15% or 500% or any other number.

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Walther (Post 1792538)
Jenkins, as you've probably been able to infer from our previous interaction, I think you are doing yourself a disservice if you think of Kickstarter as charity.

People want to feel like they are supporting an artist and maybe even be a part of the creative process, but like any "traditional" investor, they expect a reasonable return on their investment, which in this case is a desirable product.

You can't just throw up a Kickstarter and ask strangers to support your dreams without having something that people would pay money for.

I'm not making a judgement on your comic, I haven't seen it, but by your own admission you don't have a fan base to support you. That means it's going to take a lot of work to get the word out about your Kickstarter. You're not going to have a large amount of people that know you and want to support you the way, let's say...Gail Simone has.

Renae has given tons of great advice, which I know you're going to follow. The only advice I would add is that it would be better to start thinking about your Kickstarter Campaign as a business investment rather than a charity.

It's just silly to say that seeing something for what it actually is has a downside. If I didn't see it as a charity, I might be stupid enough to think I could use the model I used there outside of kickstarter and make a go of it.

You could only see it as dangerous to view KS as a charity if you think running a charity is easier than running a business. I've run charities, so I know that's a load of bull. Running a successful charity is probably harder than running a successful business.

I know if I do a KS I'll have to work hard for it. But as a rational human being, I can recognize that just because I'm working hard for it doesn't mean it's not in some essential ways a charity. I know offering incentives with essentially no market value is not an excuse for charging 5 times the established market value of my product outside of a charitable environment.

Sorry, I'm a rational human being, and I can't shut that off to convince myself I'm such a genius that my books is really worth 5 times as much as a book from Brian Micheal Bendis. Even if I'd like to, I can't. If you can? Congrats. Must be nice to be able to pull off those kinds of mental gymnastics.

By any reasonable measure, you are engaging in the much more dangerous activity by convincing yourself that KS is a legit business model. If you try to turn a profit using exactly the same production costs and print runs as on KS, you'll utterly fail. Everyone in this conversation knows that.

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMonkey (Post 1792542)
Those two things are the same. An objective measure of value does not exist. The closest thing we have is a rough average of what people are willing to pay.

If it were the same, you could sell your 22 page book for $15 at a comic book store. But you can't.

Just because your high school and college friends and the people at your church and your hometown are willing to pay $15 for a book, that doesn't mean your book is worth $15 on a real open market.

If that's not immediately obvious, this conversation is going to go nowhere.

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 01:22 AM

And by the way, Super Monkey, we do have an accurate way to measure what your initial purchase was worth. It's called the secondary market. Try reselling a 22 page book you bought for $15 on kickstarter. What you will be able to resell it for to someone with no connection to the campaign will show you what that book was worth. I can guarantee you it won't be worth $15.

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMonkey (Post 1792542)
Kickstarter is not a charity. Charities have no profit margin, 15% or 500% or any other number.

You're confusing charities with non-profits. You think there's no profit margin on girl scout cookies? You think those boxes of girl scout cookies are really worth $10? You think you could take the girl scout label off those cookies and sell them for that much next to an identical amount of Oreo cookies that cost 3$?

That's what kickstarter is. It's the comic book version of girl scout cookies.

That's why I'm fine with it when the people selling them are the comic book version of girl scouts. But when it's the comic book version of the Oreos corporation (Nabisco or whatever) doing it, I think it's gross.

Aaron Walther 04-02-2013 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792539)
A successful kickstarter campaign is not a successful business model...

Sure it is. These guys just took preorders for their product. They could have gone to a bank and gotten a loan, then paid for the product, then sold the product, then paid back the loan, then kept the profit. The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a new business model that puts the creator in direct business with the customer.

It may not be the best business model for a sagging comic market, but that doesn't mean it's not a successful business model entirely. It's not Kickstarter's fault that spending 3000 bucks on product that only sells 400 units is a bad model, that's the comic market's fault.

Regardless, when I said "business investment" (not model), I meant an investment on your part. You need to have something to offer that is more than "the nice feeling donors get for supporting an artist". And despite everybody's semantic arguments and grandstanding, I've no doubt you understand that.

Best of luck to you.

amon 04-02-2013 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Walther
I think you are doing yourself a disservice if you think of Kickstarter as charity.

Some people may leverage it into other things, but that's precisely what it is. It's not pre-ordering of a product, as there is no guarantee the product will ever exist and no refund if it doesn't.

At the very best, a KS promotion could be viewed as a garage sale, if the incentives are actual things.

Evan Henry 04-02-2013 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amon (Post 1792554)
there is no guarantee the product will ever exist and no refund if it doesn't.

I think you've misunderstood how Kickstarter works. No money changes hands until the project is funded. If you don't get what you paid for, you have the same recourse you have with any other product at any other marketplace.

amon 04-02-2013 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMonkey
No money changes hands until the project is funded.

We're presuming the funding goal is reached. Duh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMonkey
If you don't get what you paid for, you have the same recourse you have with any other product at any other marketplace.

I seriously doubt that. But please continue, governor.

Evan Henry 04-02-2013 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amon (Post 1792559)
Please elucidate.

I don't see the point, honestly. I assume you've had a bad experience purchasing something at least once in your life, so there's nothing I can tell you that you don't already know. You run the same risk of not getting your product buying from Amazon Marketplace or eBay or anywhere else. Kickstarter is inherently no different from those places, and I find it puzzling that you insist on pretending it is.

You seem to be running a scenario through your head where some master criminal comes up with Teh Coolest Comic Idea Ever (TM), funds it through Kickstarter, and makes off with millions in ill-gotten gains. I have a feeling you already know that the odds of that happening are very close to zero, not to mention that it would be highly illegal.

Now tell me about how I "dodged the question" because I can't answer it and am intellectually inferior to you. Maybe you'll get to mention Nazis!

Steven Forbes 04-02-2013 06:24 AM

I'd hate to see the thread get closed, but I'm exhausted from reading posts from those who seem to be willfully ignorant, as well as those who continue the conversation with the willfully ignorant without adding anything new.

Is there another facet to this conversation to mine?

-Steven

Evan Henry 04-02-2013 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Forbes (Post 1792564)
I'd hate to see the thread get closed, but I'm exhausted from reading posts from those who seem to be willfully ignorant, as well as those who continue the conversation with the willfully ignorant without adding anything new.

Is there another facet to this conversation to mine?

-Steven

It would probably help if we gave as much space as possible to people who actually know what they're talking about, rather than bickering amongst ourselves (myself included in the "we" category, obviously).

Hanzou 04-02-2013 08:31 AM

If a comic can go for $15, how much could you sell a trade for? My comic is on page 95 (or something), and I plan to complete it around page 130 or so. How much could you sell a b/w trade on Kickstarter?

Here's the interiors;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...287/Splash.jpg

With a color wrap-around cover.

I also have some trading cards that I did for the series, creating a PDF shouldn't be a problem, I could easily do a page dedicated to people who made this possible, and making some 11x17 prints shouldn't be a problem. I had some t-shirts in mind, but some here are saying that that's a bad idea, so what else could you conceivably offer in a campaign?

TDLR; How much could you offer a b/w trade for in a KS campaign, and what are some other incentives you could offer other than the stuff mentioned above?

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Walther (Post 1792552)
Sure it is. These guys just took preorders for their product. They could have gone to a bank and gotten a loan, then paid for the product, then sold the product, then paid back the loan, then kept the profit. The whole point of Kickstarter is that it's a new business model that puts the creator in direct business with the customer.

It may not be the best business model for a sagging comic market, but that doesn't mean it's not a successful business model entirely. It's not Kickstarter's fault that spending 3000 bucks on product that only sells 400 units is a bad model, that's the comic market's fault.

Regardless, when I said "business investment" (not model), I meant an investment on your part. You need to have something to offer that is more than "the nice feeling donors get for supporting an artist". And despite everybody's semantic arguments and grandstanding, I've no doubt you understand that.

Best of luck to you.

My last word on this is that, to me, this is like a chef who cooks for a political fundraiser thinking his food is really worth $5,000 a plate, and that opening a restaurant where he sells his food for that much is a viable business model.

If you guys are right, and KS books really are worth $15, then we really should let the editors at Marvel and DC know about this. I mean, those guys have been wasting their time with bums like Bendis and Johns and Morrison who have been in the business for 20 years and who can still only manage to produce books worth $4, when there are newcomers on KS whose first books are worth $15.

Renae De Liz 04-02-2013 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanzou (Post 1792570)
If a comic can go for $15, how much could you sell a trade for? My comic is on page 95 (or something), and I plan to complete it around page 130 or so. How much could you sell a b/w trade on Kickstarter?

Here's the interiors;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...287/Splash.jpg

With a color wrap-around cover.

I also have some trading cards that I did for the series, creating a PDF shouldn't be a problem, I could easily do a page dedicated to people who made this possible, and making some 11x17 prints shouldn't be a problem. I had some t-shirts in mind, but some here are saying that that's a bad idea, so what else could you conceivably offer in a campaign?

TDLR; How much could you offer a b/w trade for in a KS campaign, and what are some other incentives you could offer other than the stuff mentioned above?

That looks great! :D

Price it at LEAST double of what it would cost to fulfill completely to a US backer. This includes printing, shipping to you, packaging, shipping to a backer (price a like book for media mail rates at a post office) and shipping hiring (if applicable).

You can strike any balance for pricing you want. But my reasoning behind "at least doubling" is that if you go too far under that, you will ony have a small proportion of that going to your creative funding (in other words: You'd have to sell way more copies to reach your goal).

You have to keep in mind what a book like yours would cost from a publisher, and not go TOO far from it (don't charge $50 for something that would usually cost $20). I am not sure how much a book like yours would cost to print. Is it HC or soft cover? B/W?

As an example, if it's a SC B/W then it costs costs $5 printing (on Kablam, there's other choices) , so I would overestimate around $11-$12 to each US backer, so you'd have a PERFECT candidate for the $20 -$25 reward tier (that is the most popular reward amount bought). I would toss in the Digital PDF and Thanks at that level as well.

Sorry that was long! :) Hope it help!

EDIT: Whoops! Missed the bottom text on your post! Sorry

For your rewards, I would reconsider the 11X17 prints, because they'd have to be shipped separately in it's own packaging. However, if you can find out how much A) printing; B) packaging (roll packaging, right?) and; C) shipping is per piece, I can better tell you if it's a worthwhile reward to offer. 8 1/2 X 11 prints are smaller, but can fit into a larger envelope WITH the book itself (you may need to buy extra reinforcement for the print though), so that may be something to consider.

T-Shirts again, it's up to you, but consider these things:

1) They require their own shipping (or with the book, but upgrading the cheaper media mail to a $5 Priority Mail box). So taking the price to produce, and ship, then doubling it to get your reward price, it could be too expensive even for Kickstarter

2) Sizing and dist. to individual backers is a hassle! It takes time to sort who gets what, then because it's clothing, you'll have the people that don't get a proper fit, want a return, then you have to resend.

3) It will likely be an unpopular reward anyway unless your book has a good following.


I can give you a list of possible rewards if you want, but first can you tell me more about what the trading cards are? Also can you do cameos in your book, and offer sketch versions of your book?

Renae De Liz 04-02-2013 02:52 PM

And I just want to clarify on the $15 comic book for those that would like to understand better, it's not just for the comic, it's for a digital version and digital artwork as well. It is obviously priced higher than a normal comic, so digital additions are the only feasible (cost-wise for you) addition to make it more worthwhile to backers.

In case it was missed, it's priced there because A) it costs the creator $7-$8 PER COMIC to fulfill completely to a US backer, so you need to make sure you make enough towards creative costs to make it a worthwhile reward for YOU. If he were to charge $10, then only $3 go to creative costs/fees/taxes, etc, and he'd have to sell 3 times the amount of books to reach his goal ( and as lower goal campaigns often have less following, I feel that's not the best model to shoot for); and B) adding digital rewards to the physical copy, allows it to be at $15, which is a number close to the popular $20-$25 tier.

If he were to take his comic to a comic shop, there would be no shipping/packaging/ KS/Amazon fees involved (assuming you do the groundwork and hand deliver), so he could charge less (maybe $6-7 or so, that's if you cannot find a cheaper printer than Kablam).

If you can find a printer cheaper than Kablam, then you can price lower, but even then it's rough to compete with a Publisher's pricing ESPECIALLY on Kickstarter. Like small businesses have difficulty beating prices at Wal-Mart or Amazon. People like Marvel & DC can charge $3-$4 per book and still turn a profit, and that's all but impossible for a single individual.

amon 04-02-2013 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMonkey
IAmazon Marketplace or eBay or anywhere else. Kickstarter is inherently no different from those places

Please quote the part of Kickstarter's TOS that states they will act as a mediary to return unsatisfied customers' money.

Renae De Liz 04-02-2013 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveyDouble (Post 1792489)
Renae - I think you may have just set yourself up for a massive amount of email/PM goings on.
Id really like to pick your brain about Kickstarter myself if its ok with you?

The basic campaign outline is already incredibly useful and I'd like to say a big personal thank you for posting it!
Seeing it broken down has given me a little more confidence and impetus to get the ball rolling on my own book (which is still about 6 months away from getting properly underway)

Sure! Ask away! I know it sounds silly, but would you mind asking in this thread? Right now I only go online to get a break from work, so I don't go into email and messages that often (Ray monitors that stuff for me until Peter Pan is finished) It's just easier for me to respond if you post here! :)

I'm so happy to hear you're working towards your own campaign! :D How exciting!

Renae De Liz 04-02-2013 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792482)
Hmmm.... since my book is religious-themed, perhaps I'll sell indulgences.

"When a coin in the kickstarter coffers sings, a soul to heaven springs!"

LOL That's pretty cool. For thank you's having a "Wall of the Damned" and "Wall of the Blessed" would be cool, and let backers pick which one they want would be neat! :D

Quote:

1) How are your pledges and their level of backing and their rewards tracked on kickstarter? Or is that stuff up to you to organize?
I haven't fully explored the new updates since Womanthology, but it's VERY easy to track rewards, and to organize it. You just click the reward tier, and it lists everyone who backed it, and (when it's time) offers a downloadable form that has all the addresses and information on it. When anyone messages you (like to let you know if they never got their reward) it shows you right in the message what they ordered.

You won't see all of this until the campaign is successful though.


Quote:

2) Once your campaign is funded and the KS ends, does KS cut you a check or deposit money in an account, or is that at your discretion?
KS uses Amazon Payments, so you need to sign up for that, and you'll have to include your tax information. KS takes a 5% cut, Amazon takes 3-5% more. Once the campaign concludes it instantly sends all funds (minus fees) to your Amazon Payments account.

Quote:

3) How soon after the KS ends is the money transferred?
There is a verification time before you can withdraw (like a week or two, but I've heard some people can withdraw instantly) then you can transfer to a bank account (which you need to verify that bank account with Amazon Payments ahead of time too) and that takes another week. There's no added fee to transfer to a bank.

Quote:

Basically I'm just concerned about the part when the KS is over and I've got hundreds of orders to ship to hundreds of addresses. I'm concerned about how well I'd be able to keep up with that without a lot of help. That's not really my bailiwick.
First you'll send a survey to the backers, when you're ready to ship. This will send to all backers in that tier asking for whatever information you need (address most likely). Kickstarter will automatically put that information into a downloadable form. From that form, you can easily print the addresses on mailing labels. As long as you keep track of which ones you've printed, you should be okay.

Also do a once over on the addresses. Many people forget to include zip code numbers, and those will result in a return to sender. There were like 50 of those for Womanthology.

:)

DaveyDouble 04-02-2013 04:34 PM

No worries, its super awesome to have someone around who has some genuine, stone cold insight into the mechanics of a successfully completed Kickstarter!

I'm currently putting together my costs, and I've got some ideas for marketing for my campaign, which with current commitments is at least 6 months away from launching (I'm a planner, I can't help thinking six steps ahead). I'm guessing it simpler and easier to build the audience doing a KS per issue, rather than for a series, and its seems like quite a few have luck with this route.

Costs for 32p full colour soft cover book + rewards (4 episodes in series)
Turnaround - 6 months?

CREATIVE
Pencils + Cover Inks + 4p sketches - me (no cost / equivalent to 60pp / 1980)
Inks - 40p/page @ 28 pages (1120)
Colours - 65p/page @ 29 pages (1885)
Lettering - me (no cost)
Logo - 100

REWARDS
100 copies (drivethrucomics / premium colour) - 300 + delivery
200 bookmarks - 75
200 postcards - 75
50 A3 card stock prints - 45
PDF copy - no additional cost
Cameo / Design-a-character / Sketches / signed copies / WIP access / wallpapers / thank yous- no additional costs (coloured @+65 each)

PROMO (upfront costs)
10 A2 posters - 90
200 A5 Flyers - 45
QR code / Layar - ??
Website - no additional cost
Video - Basic - 250 / Fancy - 600+

Minimum costs excl. Shipping - 3985

So I suppose the question is... Am I approaching this in the right way?

CHWolf 04-02-2013 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Forbes (Post 1792564)
Is there another facet to this conversation to mine?

The fact that a video can have an affect on your success or failure?

That's the weirdest part to me. "This all makes sense, but why can't I see him talking into a webcam about it?"

dsartbr 04-02-2013 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveyDouble (Post 1792607)
So I suppose the question is... Am I approaching this in the right way?

For God's sake - do not forget the costs of delivery: between different places, countries and weights (rewards, hardcovers etc. ).

Dude.

I really wanted to try a KS.

Daniel San
http://ds.art.br/port

DaveyDouble 04-02-2013 05:31 PM

I know, I know.
I'm waiting for some more details from the print shop for the larger prints for different papers and delivery.
I've also got to double check drive thrus shipping costs to me, and international shipping for a couple of different iterations of packages.
I'm just wondering if I'm on the right track so far.

russbrett 04-02-2013 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHWolf (Post 1792610)
The fact that a video can have an affect on your success or failure?

That's the weirdest part to me. "This all makes sense, but why can't I see him talking into a webcam about it?"

It's about the passion.

Anyone can read the synopsis for your comic and decide that they like it. But that's a step away from being interested enough to pledge money. The video allows potential backers to see how passionate you are about the project. And hopefully that excitement will be contagious.

It's also the difference between reading a synopsis for a movie and seeing a preview.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveyDouble (Post 1792612)
I'm just wondering if I'm on the right track so far.

You are.

You should also be tracking Kickstarter projects that are similar to yours (in project and pledge goal). What reward tiers are they offering? Which ones are getting the most backers?

There's a pretty decent book, The Kickstarter Handbook by Don Steinberg. It's mostly basic, common-sense kind of information, but I still found the book worthwhile (and it's a quick read).

Hanzou 04-02-2013 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz (Post 1792596)
That looks great! :D

Thanks! :)

Quote:

snip

Sorry that was long! :) Hope it help!
Yes, it was extremely helpful. My book is SC, B/W. I'm not finished with it yet, but I think its going to clock in at between 125-150 pages. According to Kablam its going to cost about $6.37 per copy (not doing the Kablam ad). $20-25 seems reasonable, all things considered.

Quote:

For your rewards, I would reconsider the 11X17 prints, because they'd have to be shipped separately in it's own packaging. However, if you can find out how much A) printing; B) packaging (roll packaging, right?) and; C) shipping is per piece, I can better tell you if it's a worthwhile reward to offer. 8 1/2 X 11 prints are smaller, but can fit into a larger envelope WITH the book itself (you may need to buy extra reinforcement for the print though), so that may be something to consider.
Yeah, I'll get that info to you asap. My printer uses pretty rigid cardstock, so I'd probably have to find a new printer. Maybe use Kablam for that as well.

Quote:

T-Shirts again, it's up to you, but consider these things:

1) They require their own shipping (or with the book, but upgrading the cheaper media mail to a $5 Priority Mail box). So taking the price to produce, and ship, then doubling it to get your reward price, it could be too expensive even for Kickstarter

2) Sizing and dist. to individual backers is a hassle! It takes time to sort who gets what, then because it's clothing, you'll have the people that don't get a proper fit, want a return, then you have to resend.

3) It will likely be an unpopular reward anyway unless your book has a good following.


I can give you a list of possible rewards if you want, but first can you tell me more about what the trading cards are? Also can you do cameos in your book, and offer sketch versions of your book?
My trading cards are just my main character with a brief description of the comic itself. Real nice quality, and UV coated. I usually sell them at conventions for $1. I was considering doing a trading card set of about 10 different cards of each character, but I wanted to finish the book first. A good friend of mine does them for me, and I can get a thousand cards for a very reasonable price. I'm currently sitting on about 900 cards featuring the main character and the general story synopsis, so I figured I could do something with them.

I can offer a sketch cover version of individual issues. I wouldn't have a problem offering sketch covers of issues 1-5 if necessary. I wouldn't be able to offer cameos though. :(

BTW, thanks for taking the time to offer these pointers Renae. Its very appreciated. I know you're a busy lady. :)

Screwtape Jenkins 04-02-2013 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz (Post 1792605)
LOL That's pretty cool. For thank you's having a "Wall of the Damned" and "Wall of the Blessed" would be cool, and let backers pick which one they want would be neat! :D



I haven't fully explored the new updates since Womanthology, but it's VERY easy to track rewards, and to organize it. You just click the reward tier, and it lists everyone who backed it, and (when it's time) offers a downloadable form that has all the addresses and information on it. When anyone messages you (like to let you know if they never got their reward) it shows you right in the message what they ordered.

You won't see all of this until the campaign is successful though.




KS uses Amazon Payments, so you need to sign up for that, and you'll have to include your tax information. KS takes a 5% cut, Amazon takes 3-5% more. Once the campaign concludes it instantly sends all funds (minus fees) to your Amazon Payments account.



There is a verification time before you can withdraw (like a week or two, but I've heard some people can withdraw instantly) then you can transfer to a bank account (which you need to verify that bank account with Amazon Payments ahead of time too) and that takes another week. There's no added fee to transfer to a bank.



First you'll send a survey to the backers, when you're ready to ship. This will send to all backers in that tier asking for whatever information you need (address most likely). Kickstarter will automatically put that information into a downloadable form. From that form, you can easily print the addresses on mailing labels. As long as you keep track of which ones you've printed, you should be okay.

Also do a once over on the addresses. Many people forget to include zip code numbers, and those will result in a return to sender. There were like 50 of those for Womanthology.

:)

Thanks, Renae! We really should cut all of our mindless babbling out of the thread and sticky it. This is a goldmine of information. I like your idea about Wall of Blessed/Damned, but I think I'll make it "Book of Life" and "Book of Death." Whatcha think?

50 return to senders - ouch...

Renae De Liz 04-02-2013 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveyDouble (Post 1792607)
I'm currently putting together my costs, and I've got some ideas for marketing for my campaign, which with current commitments is at least 6 months away from launching (I'm a planner, I can't help thinking six steps ahead). I'm guessing it simpler and easier to build the audience doing a KS per issue, rather than for a series, and its seems like quite a few have luck with this route.

If you or your hired creators have little to no following right now, you are correct your best bet is to start small with 1 issue.

Quote:

Costs for 32p full colour soft cover book + rewards (4 episodes in series)
Turnaround - 6 months?
6 months may be a bit long for people to wait on a single issue and it may deter some backers from pledging but it's not impossible, and it's better to be honest with your time. But if you're able to sway 4 months instead, that would be better.



Quote:

CREATIVE
Pencils + Cover Inks + 4p sketches - me (no cost / equivalent to 60pp / 1980)
Inks - 40p/page @ 28 pages (1120)
Colours - 65p/page @ 29 pages (1885)
Lettering - me (no cost)
Logo - 100

REWARDS
100 copies (drivethrucomics / premium colour) - 300 + delivery
200 bookmarks - 75
200 postcards - 75
50 A3 card stock prints - 45
PDF copy - no additional cost
Cameo / Design-a-character / Sketches / signed copies / WIP access / wallpapers / thank yous- no additional costs (coloured @+65 each)

PROMO (upfront costs)
10 A2 posters - 90
200 A5 Flyers - 45
QR code / Layar - ??
Website - no additional cost
Video - Basic - 250 / Fancy - 600+

Minimum costs excl. Shipping - 3985

So I suppose the question is... Am I approaching this in the right way?
It's a different way to approach it, but let me try to put it into the standard way I've been figuring things out to help show you areas that you could consider:

Your Creative Costs are about 5,000 so that means near a 10,000 (15K US) campaign, which is pretty ambitious for not just a comic that has little following, but also for a UK driven campaign in which the court is still out in if they are able to receive as much funding success as US campaigns (I've seen a few that failed that I think would have found success if it came from the US). I believe the culprit may be that right now (when the UK is just able to launch a project) the primary backers on KS come from the US, so until the pool of UK backers gets bigger, you have at least a slightly lesser chance of being funded. So a Campaign of that size is risky unless you are able to A) Have FANTASTIC artwork; and B) Have even MORE fantastic video; and C) Get as much media attention as possible.

With that in mind, if you were to go forward with the scenario of a 10,000 campaign:

Core Reward would be the physical book (Core Reward = the one most purchased and I use it to calculate the rest) I do not know what UK shipping and packaging prices are like, so just for estimate purposes I'll use close to US pricing.

Core Reward Fulfillment cost per UK backer, per issue:

3 (printing/shipping to you) + 2 (packaging and shipping to UK backer) = 5

Double that and it puts your book at the reward tier of 10 ($15 US)

So this puts your campaign close to the equivalent as the one I gave to Jenkins, except your goal amount is higher. Incude Digital Components like Wallpapers and PDF copy in that tier as well.

To clarify on rewards better to everyone if it helps, you can put whatever you want up there, as long as you as each reward tier is priced at LEAST double what is costs you to complete fulfillment per backer (for the entire tier, so if it's multiple items, make sure the same equation works).

More on Rewards:

There's more that goes into what to offer (I already posted my thoughts on T-Shirts). But the main focus is to

1) Keep the physical copy as the highlighted object (don't smother it out with a million items)

2) Keep rewards tiers simple and easy to read. Don't put multiple rewards in the same tier (IE: don't have two $15 rewards.)

3) Any Merchandise offered needs serious consideration into what would go into fulfillment of that item before you offer them, price-wise and time commitment wise. As I mentioned with T Shirts, may people don't consider how much they should price them to make them worthwhile, the added shipping cost, or about returns in sizing. Also consider that unless you have a following, merchandise may not be sought after as much.

4) You ALWAYS want items around the $1, $5, $15, $25, $50-$65, $100-$125, $200-$250, $500 and one crazy high priced one just in case a wealthy backer just wants to help out. The $25 is the most popular tier, while the $100 is the tier that brings in the most money.

5) Davey Double, you're in the UK, so offer a STRONG Digital reward tier for US backers (as most won't want to pay for Int. shipping charges). I'd suggest a 6-7 ($10 US) tier that includes the digital copy of the main book, the sketch book, as well as a wallpapers and a thanks you. The good thing about this tier is it's 100% no cost to you to fulfill.

Anyway, let me know your input so far and I can continue giving input if you wants it! :)


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:29 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1997-2015 Digital Webbing, LLC