Digital Webbing Forums

Digital Webbing Forums (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/index.php)
-   Creator Community (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   Kickstarter 2012 Stats (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165884)

Renae De Liz 03-29-2013 06:16 PM

Kickstarter 2012 Stats
 
Just came across the 2012 stats for Comics on Kickstarter and thought I'd post them here as I know there's many here who are considering a KS campaign of your own.

Projects launched 1,170

Successful projects 542

Money Pledged $9,242,233

Average books funded per month: 45 (no wonder people consider it like it's own publisher)

I didn't realize there's almost a 1 in 2 chance of success for a comics project on Kickstarter! That's pretty encouraging!

Tanja 03-29-2013 08:09 PM

Good info to know about Kickstarter! Interesting, too, because...of the ones I'm aware of (not necessarily donating to), less than half of them have been successful, or at least that's how it seemed to me. But overall, it looks like the projects actually do have pretty good odds in getting funded.

Thanks for posting, Renae. :)


"May the odds ever be in your favor...!"

russbrett 03-29-2013 09:40 PM

It's not bad odds.

But they are a little deceptive. More and more established creators are coming to Kickstarter to launch their creator owned stuff. They have a built in fan base to turn to for backers that the average indie creator doesn't have (like me).

Still, I'll take that percentage over a lower one.

Thanks, Renae.

Screwtape Jenkins 03-29-2013 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russbrett (Post 1792194)
More and more established creators are coming to Kickstarter to launch their creator owned stuff. They have a built in fan base to turn to for backers that the average indie creator doesn't have (like me).

Does that annoy anyone else? It annoys me. I see it more often with video games, where giant publishers who could raise money through more traditional means come to kickstarter for the interest-free, consequence-free money.

I feel like there's a finite supply of cash going through kickstarter and it should be reserved for people and projects that couldn't realistically raise the money elsewhere.

russbrett 03-29-2013 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792195)
Does that annoy anyone else? It annoys me. I see it more often with video games, where giant publishers who could raise money through more traditional means come to kickstarter for the interest-free, consequence-free money.

I feel like there's a finite supply of cash going through kickstarter and it should be reserved for people and projects that couldn't realistically raise the money elsewhere.

I had the same reaction at first. But I don't think "there's a finite supply of cash going through kickstarter."

In late 2011, only 16% of all funders were "repeat backers" who had given to more than one project. -- "The Kickstarter Handbook: Real-Life Crowdfunding Success Stories" by Don Steinberg

Take a look at a project like the Veronica Mars movie. 63,000 backers. Do you think that project pulled $4 million worth of pledges away from other projects? Of course not. It was a built in fan base responding to a call for help. Those 63,000 people are in for that project, and then gone.

The same most likely holds true for the comic book projects. Gail Simone is not stealing potential pledges from Henchmen.

But, there is always the possibility that the people who come in for the BIG NAME, may stick around to windowshop at the other projects. They already signed up with the site and pledged some money, what's a few more bucks to another interesting project?

The real problem I have with Kickstarter and established professionals is that of course their projects are going to be more successful; so what happens is they take up the invaluable space at the top of the search page. How far down do you have to scroll (through some pretty famous people's projects) before they get to Joe Schmoe's project of passion?

I complained to Kickstarter about improving their Search features. I really hope something changes before my project goes Live.

DJ Keawekane 03-29-2013 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792195)
Does that annoy anyone else? It annoys me. I see it more often with video games, where giant publishers who could raise money through more traditional means come to kickstarter for the interest-free, consequence-free money.

I feel like there's a finite supply of cash going through kickstarter and it should be reserved for people and projects that couldn't realistically raise the money elsewhere.

Dude as long as people have money Kickstarter will have money.

Renae De Liz 03-29-2013 11:00 PM

The "famous people taking all the money" is something people have been arguing about for awhile. I haven't noticed a big drop in success for smaller campaigns yet, so I think it doesn't effect things too much to have "big name" people in there. BUT I do wish they would make it so these big campaigns had their own section maybe? As it was mentioned, it can make it harder for the smaller projects to be highlighted, which isn't fair.

Personally when I see numbers bigger than 100K I just feel worry for them. Unless they've hired a crew of employees to handle the backers, they can EASILY have huge angry mobs coming at them if anything at all goes wrong.

Screwtape Jenkins 03-29-2013 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Keawekane (Post 1792203)
Dude as long as people have money Kickstarter will have money.

See, I don't think so. I think it's only going to take one or two of the big profile, big money kickstarter projects to tank before internet crowd-sourcing becomes synonymous with internet fraud, and the money all goes away.

That won't happen because a handful of fully-funded $3000 comic books ended up tanking. But when a couple of big name producers or game designers disappear with 2-3 million dollars, I think people will get a lot more cautious and there will be a lot less money available.

And the thing is, with big movies and video games, it's going to happen. Even if it's not fraud, it's going to happen. Those are just endeavors that go massively over-budget regularly. Someone's going to burn through millions of kickstarter dollars, come back and raise millions more, burn through that, and then release a half-finished or broken product. And my fear is what will be the fate of kickstarter on that day, which is absolutely guaranteed to come.

dsartbr 03-30-2013 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792209)
[...] And my fear is what will be the fate of kickstarter on that day, which is absolutely guaranteed to come.

I can speak for myself: so far I have not received my copy of Sullivan's Sluggers (I live in Brazil). There are many projects that I would have supported and have the printed issues ... but then I think: will I receive this time? I hope one day that my edition arrives.

Daniel San
http://ds.art.br/port

MBirkhofer 03-30-2013 09:20 AM

Fraud is running utterly rampant on kickstarter now. Might have started well. but the conartists have noticed it.
It has no oversight, no accountability, no vetting process.
Its a free ride for scams, cons, and fraud.


Kickstarter is supposed to be funding to development new material.

If you are using it to publish previously created material. fraud.
If you are using it to fund your life. fraud.

Spaming. using false information. etc.

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/acco...on-kickstarter
http://www.dailydot.com/business/why...er-ripe-scams/

This is utter horse shit.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...codak-volume-1
Asking 30k to print prepublished material. stretch goals that are complete fraud(and mind you, he CHANGED them, when they were even higher, and offered less rewards). where is the accountability for over funding?


This is blowing up right now. Rabbit hole on this keeps getting deeper and deeper. And really illustrates the problem. It is not viable for the average person to do this kind of investigation. Buyer beware is bullshit. Con artists know what they are doing. If Kickstarter doesn't do something to protect their "honor" soon, faith in it will plummet. as more and more highly dubious projects pass.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=528903
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...g-kickstarter/

The codex and RPG both illustrate a severe problem. overfunding. What happens to that cash? And this is why its fraud.

But this kickstarter for previously created materials. you can set a goal thats low, this ensures it goes through. And with previously created contant. ZERO RISK. Its work you already have paid for in time, and possibly publication. Print and mailing fees is the only cost.
And zero commitment. You aren't actually creating anything.
Getting around "fund my life" projects are as simple as having any physical media at the end. kickstarter refuses to remove that rpg scam, becuase it promises an actaul game at the end. Well if that is so? why can't I kickstart sending my kid to bandcamp? and provide footage of the concert at the end? Seems kickstarter can't even figure out their own rules.

one of the defenses I hear for codek is "I'm giving artists money to support". uh. there is nothing in that kickstarter that says hes going to use your money to keep making more art. (especially funny when you look at his complete lack of production) that WOULD be accountability. If there was a caveat that those funds required him to to produce more work, then ok. but it doesn't. he can buy a boat, and a house. and quit working entirely with your money, since now he doesn't need to work anymore. this is quite literately the opposite of how its supposed to work. Its supposed to encourage NEW works. not pay windfalls to previously created works, so the people don't need to create new.
Its not a donation site. if people knew they are just donated to people flat out, they would not be investing in many of these projects.
And its not amazon.com. why are you selling published work on it?

As an artist I find it entirely offensive how this guy treats his fans. Asking for 700k to create 1 comic per week, for 1 year. (originally, this was 800k for 1 every other week.)


I'm sure there are many legit Kickstarters. But they are quickly becoming drowned out by the scams. Kickstarter really needs to deal with this fast. But don't seem to care.
I personally can not agree with supporting kickstarter itself in any way, as long as its policies are not changed. using it, providing funding via it. It is creating an incredibly unhealthy environment.

Leveraging fame and wealth to create successful kickstarters is a mixed bag.
on one hand, yes, its supposed to be more for those that can't get the funding through normal channels. But frankly, normal channels kindof suck. And even the "big" guys don't want to work with them. Can we really blame them for asking, why do we need Image?

Marvel, DC, Image, largely exist currently to get prime STOREFFRONT real estate. In a comic shop, getting an indie book purchased at all is difficult. and if it is purchased, its going to be displayed in some back ass shelf. not in the prime Marvel, DC areas. Getting into Image or Darkhorse is a giant step up in shelf space.
Digital age however, who cares? Shelf space is shared nearly equally. Still not a steam yet for indie love. but better then comic shops.
Connecting directly to the fans is fantastic.

I mean, even beyond that. Steam takes 20-30% from indie games. has project greenlight, workshop, and early access.
android/apple take 30% off the top of a comic sold on devices. Comixology THEN takes 50%. 35% of sale now split between publisher and creators. Really can't blame anyone for wanting to skip some of these middlemen and work directly with the fans. No matter how "rich" they are.

kickstarter takes 5% btw.


I can't say if other crowdfunding sites are more responsible. Most of the cons have been on kickstarter so far though. I think miss Wilson had an indiegogo one though?

here's monica rays indiegogo.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-phuzzy-book
Mostly predone work again. some updates/original work for the book.
All around seems much more ethically done however.


I wonder what the funding variance is for comics, on creating new comics, vs print runs of existing comics.

amon 03-30-2013 01:00 PM

Kickstarter is becoming more and more an avenue for scam proliferation? Color me shocked.

Screwtape Jenkins 03-30-2013 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBirkhofer (Post 1792226)
android/apple take 30% off the top of a comic sold on devices. Comixology THEN takes 50%. 35% of sale now split between publisher and creators.

Wow, I did not know this. So if I sell a comic on comixology for a dollar, I'll just get 35 cents per issue BEFORE the publisher takes his cut?

I always thought comixology and other similar apps sort of paid apple "rent" to keep their apps up and running. I didn't know apple took a cut of every sale. And I never dreamed their cut would be thirty-freaking-percent of every sale! Those are mafia rates!

Renae De Liz 03-30-2013 02:07 PM

I appreciate the opinions on Kickstarter, guys! I know it's not for everyone (and I already KNOW you hate it Amon :laugh: ). Just to hopefully clear up a few misconceptions I see popping up from time to time:

1) Despite worries about scammers running amok (which I think is not as huge as it seems) there's still plenty of fantastic projects that get funded everyday on there. I feel like Kickstarter is new and scary and different, so people (esp. in the media) are ready to point and scream "WIIIITCH! Drown it! Drown it!" As soon as anything resembling their worries rears it's head. But you cannot deny that it's a POWERFUL option to get your book made, when you do not want to depend on a publisher (which takes a larger chunk of sales than the 8% combined rate Kickstarter and Amazon Payments take)

2) Overage Amount (I suffered from people not understanding this point) When a KS goes OVER it's amount, that overage does NOT go straight to pocket. If your amount goes over by 400%, your REWARD FULFILLMENT gets bigger by 400%. You have to pay to produce and ship 400% more rewards, which costs a LOT of money! Also a little known point, unless you've been there; but a huge increase in backers can fundamentally change how you planned on handling backers and fulfillment, which costs more money. Kickstarter is NEVER a free money for all. You have to work hard for it.

3) "Fund your life" is not allowed on Kickstarter in terms that you cannot campaign to get funding to fix your car. But hiring yourself for your creative work IS ALLOWED. That is no more "funding your life" than when a Publisher gives you a check for creative work. So calling those people frauds is undue.

4) Kickstarting finished work I can more understand having a grievance, because I believe Kickstarter was meant for projects that needed help to find completion. However even for finished projects KS offers 100% control and not having to answer to a Publisher (or give them a HUGE cut). On the flip side you have to instead answer to hundreds of people, who take little or no provocation before trying to tarnish your name. So don't think it's "easy" and "no risk". KS means putting yourself and your name out there in a risky way that can turn bad if you're not accountable (sometimes if you've done nothing wrong at all, lol!)

Thanks for the discussion, guys! :D

GDFTony 03-30-2013 02:18 PM

I don't have much experience with Kickstarter, but it's kind of a buyer beware situation. That's the way I've always taken it, same with everything else I have bought on the internet (except from amazon).

Do your research, if you feel like it's a good investment then do it. But you're donating/investing money, there's always a chance the project is going to fail everyone should know this. These people aren't milking you out of money, you actively have to choose to give it away.

I think it's a great way for indie anyone to get funding, it looks like if you use it right (start off small and build fan bases, become reliable and consistent on deliveries) there is enough forms of feedback for that positivity to spread on the internet. I think it's a great tool that kinda "levels" the playing field so to speak.

But like I said, you have to be aware theres always a risk when dealing with individuals and not established companies.

Renae De Liz 03-30-2013 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsartbr (Post 1792210)
I can speak for myself: so far I have not received my copy of Sullivan's Sluggers (I live in Brazil). There are many projects that I would have supported and have the printed issues ... but then I think: will I receive this time? I hope one day that my edition arrives.

Daniel San
http://ds.art.br/port

Yeah I read about his issues with International Shipping. :( I'm happy to see that he's trying hard to find a solution to fix the mistake and not run away from responsibility. I hope you get your book soon!

I had horrible problems with International shipping. Not only were they WAY more expensive than I thought, but I've repeatedly send Int. Books only to have them repeatedly never arrive to the backer. Or snapped up by customs. Int. Shipping is no joke.

Renae De Liz 03-30-2013 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDFTony (Post 1792243)
I don't have much experience with Kickstarter, but it's kind of a buyer beware situation. That's the way I've always taken it, same with everything else I have bought on the internet (except from amazon).

Do your research, if you feel like it's a good investment then do it. But you're donating/investing money, there's always a chance the project is going to fail everyone should know this. These people aren't milking you out of money, you actively have to choose to give it away.

I think it's a great way for indie anyone to get funding, it looks like if you use it right (start off small and build fan bases, become reliable and consistent on deliveries) there is enough forms of feedback for that positivity to spread on the internet. I think it's a great tool that kinda "levels" the playing field so to speak.

But like I said, you have to be aware theres always a risk when dealing with individuals and not established companies.

All so true! :)

And this part: " you have to be aware theres always a risk when dealing with individuals and not established companies." is also true from the campaigners perspective. You can rely on a Publisher to act professional, but when you're dealing with hundreds (sometimes thousands) of people, you come across a LOT of different personalities that you need to deal with on a daily basis. It can be rough.

MBirkhofer 03-30-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792238)
Wow, I did not know this. So if I sell a comic on comixology for a dollar, I'll just get 35 cents per issue BEFORE the publisher takes his cut?

I always thought comixology and other similar apps sort of paid apple "rent" to keep their apps up and running. I didn't know apple took a cut of every sale. And I never dreamed their cut would be thirty-freaking-percent of every sale! Those are mafia rates!

yeah. apple being apple. It started with Itunes. everything on itunes gets this 30%. And then it applied to everything on ipads. A platform licensing fee.
Nintendo, and the like always did this too.
Android followed suit and everything you buy on android 30% goes to them as well.
Microsoft did not have this for the longest time on their tablets. I imagine this is largely the reason Windows 8 is a thing. they probably also now charge a platform fee.

MBirkhofer 03-30-2013 03:35 PM

it is a clearly disproportional risk however. Its like saying we dont need child labor laws, because if kids are willing to work, its on them.
"buyer beware" is simply not valid in a digital world. Its too easy to make a fake accounts, fake ids.

No accountability will equal massive fraud. And then no one will be able to use it, once its reputation is ruined. We all use Amazon, because we trust it.
Kickstarter really needs to step up and start enforcing some real control over what they allow.

Screwtape Jenkins 03-30-2013 03:58 PM

Does KS allow you to simply not accept international backers for certain rewards?

Screwtape Jenkins 03-30-2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBirkhofer (Post 1792256)
it is a clearly disproportional risk however. Its like saying we dont need child labor laws, because if kids are willing to work, its on them.
"buyer beware" is simply not valid in a digital world. Its too easy to make a fake accounts, fake ids.

No accountability will equal massive fraud. And then no one will be able to use it, once its reputation is ruined. We all use Amazon, because we trust it.
Kickstarter really needs to step up and start enforcing some real control over what they allow.

Exactly. It's only going to take one class action suit against kickstarter to end this kind of thing forever, and IMO such a lawsuit is long overdue. I appreciate that for someone who is responsible and conscientious like Renae, who will work hard to fulfill her reward promises, it's not free money.

But people like Renae aren't the problem. The problem is scammers who never had any intention of fulfilling their reward obligations in the first place.

And as you say, it's pretty easy for them to switch up IDs and go to the well again and again. IMO, KS as it is currently constituted has no hope of long-term survival. Even having said all that, I think it's potentially a great tool. I just think the risk of it collapsing will be decreased if it is used for what it was originally intended for: funding small projects. It was never intended to be used as alternative funding for multi-million dollar movies and video games, and expanding into that area is going to lead to its downfall, IMO.

amon 03-30-2013 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
(and I already KNOW you hate it Amon :laugh: )

Hate is too strong a word. Closer to the truth would be that I'm amused KS keeps manifesting itself as the exact scammer cesspool I predicted it would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
Kickstarter is NEVER a free money for all. You have to work hard for it.

Unless you just take the money and run. Which is happening more often.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
But you cannot deny that it's a POWERFUL option to get your book made

You know what's an even more POWERFUL option to get your book made? Making your book. As for shopping it to publishers, the heartbreak comes with aiming at trademark placeholders like Marvel and DC, pay-to-play deals like Image, or fly-by-night operations like Monsterverse.

dsartbr 03-30-2013 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz (Post 1792247)
Yeah I read about his issues with International Shipping. :( I'm happy to see that he's trying hard to find a solution to fix the mistake and not run away from responsibility. I hope you get your book soon!

Yes, he has seemed very honest and patient (well - backers too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz (Post 1792247)
I had horrible problems with International shipping. Not only were they WAY more expensive than I thought, but I've repeatedly send Int. Books only to have them repeatedly never arrive to the backer. Or snapped up by customs. Int. Shipping is no joke.

Once he asked suggestions about local delivery (by countries) - and I said exactly that: the service here is more expensive and unreliable.

I wish everything end well ...

Daniel
http://ds.art.br/port

Renae De Liz 03-30-2013 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amon (Post 1792261)
Hate is too strong a word. Closer to the truth would be that I'm amused KS keeps manifesting itself as the exact scammer cesspool I predicted it would.

Unless you just take the money and run. Which is happening more often.

Okay, amused then! I swear it's my goal in life now to get you to run a Kickstarter! :nyah:

I haven't actually heard of a SUCCESSFUL Kickstarter scam yet (the ones I've found all were shut down early). I've heard of people running into horrible problems, delaying things badly (or to the point that there's no return) But I haven't seen one yet in which there was NO intent from the campaigner to ever return on their project. I'm sure it may have happened, but I must disagree that KS is riddled with scammers.

However, I DO agree that the potential for scammers could be big, so I do understand where you and others are coming from, and it's a valid worry. However I think that huge potential is tempered somewhat by the fact that people who often make the BIG BUCKS are well known, and those people are most likely NOT going to risk their reputation to scam people and run off. You need a powerful base to get that many backers.

Quote:

You know what's an even more POWERFUL option to get your book made? Making your book. As for shopping it to publishers, the heartbreak comes with aiming at trademark placeholders like Marvel and DC, pay-to-play deals like Image, or fly-by-night operations like Monsterverse.
You are right again, but consider for some people "making your book" is difficult in that you do not have money, and have NO options but hope a publisher picked them up. For those people Kickstarter can often be their only hope. I do not believe only people who have money should create comics, and I believe Publishers shouldn't be the only authority on what books get made.

Renae De Liz 03-30-2013 07:44 PM

And regardless of if there's scammers running amok, or what could happen to Kickstarter one day, it has no bearing on if RIGHT NOW it's a valid option or not for a comic book creator to take their title. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsartbr (Post 1792262)
Yes, he has seemed very honest and patient (well - backers too).



Once he asked suggestions about local delivery (by countries) - and I said exactly that: the service here is more expensive and unreliable.

I wish everything end well ...

Daniel
http://ds.art.br/port

I really hope so! From what I've seen, he's hell bent to get it all fixed somehow. Wasn't he running a second campaign to fix the Int. issue and people shut it down?

Hope all ends well. I know it's not much, but you're awesome for supporting such a cool book. :)

Renae De Liz 03-30-2013 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792257)
Does KS allow you to simply not accept international backers for certain rewards?

As far as I know that's not an option, but it would be a cool one to add. I don't believe Int. Shipping is that big of an issue for a project unless they've earned a LOT of money and have hundreds of INT books to ship. Then the potential for lost/custom books is higher, then you have to reship them and hope that one will stick. All the while backers get more and more upset at YOU even though you are doing all you can. I can't tell you how difficult Womanthology Int. books have been. I took a lot of steps with Peter Pan to avoid shipping difficulties this time.

amon 03-30-2013 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
for some people "making your book" is difficult in that you do not have money, and have NO options but hope a publisher picked them up.

'Cuz pencils, ink and bristol board are sooooo expensive.

Renae De Liz 03-30-2013 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amon (Post 1792291)
'Cuz pencils, ink and bristol board are sooooo expensive.

That's not all that goes into it and you know it, Amon! :laugh: I do agree with the "If you want to do it, then do it" train of thought though. If you CAN do it without KS then that's awesome. But most need monetary help to complete their project (hiring artists, inkers, colorists, paying for printing).

Screwtape Jenkins 03-30-2013 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amon (Post 1792291)
'Cuz pencils, ink and bristol board are sooooo expensive.

That stuff's cheap. It's hiring people who can do cool things with that stuff that's expensive.

We're not all artists.

I tried doing the free collaboration thing for a while and it came to naught. I decided I had to pay to make anything happen. I had to take a second job to get my first comic done. Not all of us have the option of just picking up art supplies and drawing in our spare time.

I bagged on kickstarter here, but that's mostly because I hope it's still around if/when I need it. For the people who actually do need it, it's a great resource. For the large corporations and famous artists swooping in, it's a free money scam.

Ray Dillon 03-31-2013 12:53 AM

Famous doesn't mean rich or freedom to do whatever they want. Plenty of famous artists we know wish they could get out from Marvel/DC and do creator-owned, but that's a really rough transition for anyone and a big risk, especially if you have a family to take care of.

amon 03-31-2013 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins
We're not all artists.

Gee, that's too bad.

amon 03-31-2013 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Dillon
Plenty of famous artists we know wish they could get out from Marvel/DC and do creator-owned

Name some. Those who actually want to, do. All the ones I've heard talk about such things just wish they could get another Batman gig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Dillon
but that's a really rough transition for anyone and a big risk, especially if you have a family to take care of.

Maybe someday we'll learn the lesson of Siegel and Shuster.

Screwtape Jenkins 03-31-2013 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Dillon (Post 1792296)
Famous doesn't mean rich or freedom to do whatever they want. Plenty of famous artists we know wish they could get out from Marvel/DC and do creator-owned, but that's a really rough transition for anyone and a big risk, especially if you have a family to take care of.

But famous does mean a lot more power to do what they want than most people have. It means they have access to avenues of getting their work out there that unknowns don't have. And instead of availing themselves of those, they're pushing the little guy out of the way and shoving their way to the front of the digital bread lines. And when they're done there might not be any bread left for people who actually need it. And that annoys me.

DJ Keawekane 03-31-2013 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins (Post 1792209)
See, I don't think so. I think it's only going to take one or two of the big profile, big money kickstarter projects to tank before internet crowd-sourcing becomes synonymous with internet fraud, and the money all goes away.

That won't happen because a handful of fully-funded $3000 comic books ended up tanking. But when a couple of big name producers or game designers disappear with 2-3 million dollars, I think people will get a lot more cautious and there will be a lot less money available.

And the thing is, with big movies and video games, it's going to happen. Even if it's not fraud, it's going to happen. Those are just endeavors that go massively over-budget regularly. Someone's going to burn through millions of kickstarter dollars, come back and raise millions more, burn through that, and then release a half-finished or broken product. And my fear is what will be the fate of kickstarter on that day, which is absolutely guaranteed to come.

In this day and age I think people are smarter than that. If a campaign goes wrong I don't think EVERYONE who pledged will blame KS. Is everybody mad at KS for what happened with Sullivan's Sluggers? If so, that's their choice who they point their frustrations towards.

And besides, people get ripped off- it's a fact- but I don't think in general KS is synonymous with rip-off, unless you have a skewed POV.

Bottom line is it's up to you to buy. In other words just like stuff you buy on-line it's up to you if you buy it. If you don't want to it's your choice- but money made will continue to be made especially in the methods were it's proven to be fruitful. That's just the world we live in.

I want to do one eventually. And I don't see it going away. People will just move to the next biggest thing. KS may go away but I don't see crowd funding going away look at Myspace and now Facebook people will eventually move on but social media isn't going away.

My point is as long as there is a demand there will be supply.

Hanzou 03-31-2013 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMonkey (Post 1792301)
Exactly. Anyone without artistic ability or bottomless buckets of money should stay away from the industry.

I agree. They should stay far, far away.

Quote:

This is utter horse shit.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...codak-volume-1
Asking 30k to print prepublished material. stretch goals that are complete fraud(and mind you, he CHANGED them, when they were even higher, and offered less rewards). where is the accountability for over funding?
I'm going to have to defend Aaron Diaz and Dresdan here. The people sending money to his Kickstarter know full well what they're getting into. It isn't fraud or wrong doing on Aaron's part. His fans are loyal to him, and they're willing to shell out the cash to support his projects; ready made or not. I applaud what he's doing, and wish I had that level of success to pull off a 500k Kickstarter project. The guy cut his teeth for years in the webcomic world cultivating a fan base, and he deserves all the money heading his way. You really can't blame Kickstarter or Diaz for people WANTING to send him money to support him. They love him, and they love his artwork.

Instead of criticizing the man, we should be taking notes.

Evan Henry 03-31-2013 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanzou (Post 1792325)
I agree. They should stay far, far away.

I obviously need to work on my sarcasm. :whistlin:

MBirkhofer 03-31-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanzou (Post 1792325)
I agree. They should stay far, far away.



I'm going to have to defend Aaron Diaz and Dresdan here. The people sending money to his Kickstarter know full well what they're getting into. It isn't fraud or wrong doing on Aaron's part. His fans are loyal to him, and they're willing to shell out the cash to support his projects; ready made or not. I applaud what he's doing, and wish I had that level of success to pull off a 500k Kickstarter project. The guy cut his teeth for years in the webcomic world cultivating a fan base, and he deserves all the money heading his way. You really can't blame Kickstarter or Diaz for people WANTING to send him money to support him. They love him, and they love his artwork.

Instead of criticizing the man, we should be taking notes.

We should be taking notes on how to fleece our fans with non-commitment?

Today I learned, that I should spend all my time on twitter talking about how good I am, instead of actually doing anything. It obviously gets better results.

What project are you supporting? read that kickstarter a little more closely. You are buying a book of previously published work, not supporting any future projects. you are supporting him playing games and spamming twitter.

It is completely unethical. If the stretch goals represented something realistic and tangible, that would be another matter. But it is a book sale, run as a donation drive, masked as a crowd funded project. fraud.
I don't know who came up with the idea of selling books at $25-$600, pay what you feel like paying, but masking it as an investment is somewhere between evil and genius.
Do you REALLY think, if that book was for sale on Amazon.com, and the price was $25-600 pay what you like, ANYONE would pay $600, because they want to help the author? no, because everyone would know damn well it was a simple sales transaction. hell, this "invest" crap avoids sales tax.

Hanzou 03-31-2013 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBirkhofer (Post 1792332)
We should be taking notes on how to fleece our fans with non-commitment?

Today I learned, that I should spend all my time on twitter talking about how good I am, instead of actually doing anything. It obviously gets better results.

What project are you supporting? read that kickstarter a little more closely. You are buying a book of previously published work, not supporting any future projects. you are supporting him playing games and spamming twitter.

It is completely unethical. If the stretch goals represented something realistic and tangible, that would be another matter. But it is a book sale, run as a donation drive, masked as a crowd funded project. fraud.
I don't know who came up with the idea of selling books at $25-$600, pay what you feel like paying, but masking it as an investment is somewhere between evil and genius.
Do you REALLY think, if that book was for sale on Amazon.com, and the price was $25-600 pay what you like, ANYONE would pay $600, because they want to help the author? no, because everyone would know damn well it was a simple sales transaction. hell, this "invest" crap avoids sales tax.

But again, how is it unethical if the people know exactly what they're purchasing? If someone is selling me a car that has frame damage and has been in a flood, and don't tell me it has frame damage and has been in a flood, and purposely scrub the records so that there's no way I can know the vehicle's history, that is unethical and is wrong.

However, if they sell me a crappy car, they tell me its a crappy car, and I KNOW its a crappy car, and I buy the crappy car anyway, how is that unethical? That's just me being a stupid consumer.

Now you can argue that Diaz's fans are idiots for supporting that Kickstarter drive, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. However, you can't say that Diaz is being unethical, because he's telling them exactly what they're purchasing. It's their money, they can spend it anyway they see fit. If someone wants to spend $40 on a print, a pdf, and three mini-prints that's their business. If 7k people want this guy to sit on his butt and play videogames all day, again, that's their business.

Diaz definitely isn't evil, but he's definitely a genius. Again, we should all be taking notes.

russbrett 03-31-2013 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanzou (Post 1792337)
But again, how is it unethical if the people know exactly what they're purchasing? If someone is selling me a car that has frame damage and has been in a flood, and don't tell me it has frame damage and has been in a flood, and purposely scrub the records so that there's no way I can know the vehicle's history, that is unethical and is wrong.

However, if they sell me a crappy car, they tell me its a crappy car, and I KNOW its a crappy car, and I buy the crappy car anyway, how is that unethical? That's just me being a stupid consumer.

Now you can argue that Diaz's fans are idiots for supporting that Kickstarter drive, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. However, you can't say that Diaz is being unethical, because he's telling them exactly what they're purchasing. It's their money, they can spend it anyway they see fit. If someone wants to spend $40 on a print, a pdf, and three mini-prints that's their business. If 7k people want this guy to sit on his butt and play videogames all day, again, that's their business.

Diaz definitely isn't evil, but he's definitely a genius. Again, we should all be taking notes.

Agreed.

I really don't see anything wrong with using Kickstarter to sell previously published works (particularly if they have never been collected into one edition before). Though there should probably be something exclusive to those backing the Kickstarter campaign (a special cover, or bonus material not included in other printings).

I'm planning on doing three separate Kickstarter campaigns for each of the three issues of my comic book. Depending on how much interest I can build after the completion of the third, I can easily see myself doing a fourth Kickstarter to do a trade paperback.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using KS for the trade just because the content had previously been published before.

Hanzou 03-31-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russbrett (Post 1792339)
Agreed.

I really don't see anything wrong with using Kickstarter to sell previously published works (particularly if they have never been collected into one edition before). Though there should probably be something exclusive to those backing the Kickstarter campaign (a special cover, or bonus material not included in other printings).

I'm planning on doing three separate Kickstarter campaigns for each of the three issues of my comic book. Depending on how much interest I can build after the completion of the third, I can easily see myself doing a fourth Kickstarter to do a trade paperback.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using KS for the trade just because the content had previously been published before.

The most amazing thing about this is that Aaron Diaz got thousands of people to pay $10-20 for what essentially they're getting from his website for free.

Absolute genius.

MBirkhofer 03-31-2013 10:22 AM

"the customer is always right" Blaming fans is just completely missing the point. its not their fault.
They are fans not experts on the field. We can not expect them to have the knowledge of what goes into the creation of works. and we can not expect them to have the time, or resources to research every one of these with the due diligence required, to prevent fraud.

Asking them to protect themselves is absurd. and it is our responsibility to look out for them. If we see them getting taken advantage of, we damn well shouldn't be taking notes on how to fuck them over ourselves, we should be calling that shit out, and letting them know, they are being used.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1997-2015 Digital Webbing, LLC