Go Back   Digital Webbing Forums > Hosted Forums > ComixTribe > The Proving Grounds

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-01-2014, 09:05 AM   #1
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

TPG Week 188: Nothing Good To Say



Welcome back, one and all, to The Proving Grounds. This week brings us a new Brave One in Andrew Brinkley and co-writer Eric Parfait. Andrew is also an editor, which is something we don't get too often here at TPG. Anyway, we have Steve Colle in blue, I'm in red, and we'll see what Andrew brings us in



Luchadores VS



Before we begin, there are two things I vanna say. (Yes, vanna.) First, this isn't going to go well. Not at all. You have been warned. Second, the font size on this was at 10. Was I expecting better from an editor? Yes, I was. I'm not going to be any different than usual, but I expected better. So, let's get on with the show.



To begin, the formatting is frustrating in that you’ve used the space bar to indent everything save the page number. On top of that, you’re breaking up sentences in the panel descriptions and dialogue and placing it on different lines instead of letting it go across the written page and allowing the margins to do their jobs. Part of me is hoping it fixes itself when Steven posts it to the site, but the other half is hoping it doesn’t so others can see my frustration. Either way, this is NOT the way to set up your format, consistent or not.



Page 1



Panel 1 - Shot of a building, people filing in. (Talk about vague. What kind of building are we looking at here? Is it an office building? A museum? An outhouse? You’re creating an awfully big assumption that your artist is going to know EXACTLY what kind of building you’re looking for. Here in Calgary, Alberta, Canada [which is a BIG wrestling mecca thanks to the Hart Family and the popularity of Bret Hart and his siblings/in-laws], they have larger promotions such as the WWE presenting at major venues like the Saddledome and smaller [and much smaller] promotions having shows in community centers, school gyms, and anywhere else they can afford to rent [which isn’t saying much as the entry fee itself pays solely for the venue, not to pay the wrestlers]. You get the idea. That said, you need to be a helluva lot more specific. Something else you forgot to mention was the interior/exterior aspect of the shot, so we’re left wondering if people are going into the doors from outside or coming into the venue and we get a shot of the inside entrance. How far away is the shot? That’s something else to consider. Now, when you’re saying that people are filing in, just how many people are we talking about? A long lineup will show popularity of the event, while a few people gives a completely different message. What kinds of people? How are they dressed? Are they casual, in business attire, or are they in military garb? Give us more to work from. And just as an aside, did you notice how much I’ve written and the questions I’ve asked based solely on your seven-word opening sentence? Speaks volumes unto itself, doesn’t it?) On the wall

is plastered a sign for "Lucha Libre." (First of all, the word “plastered” denotes to me that there is more than just one poster or sign, that the wall is completely covered in them. Watch your words. And though I know what Lucha Libre is, is your artist going to know? Are there images on the sign or just the words “Lucha Libre”? See the problems vagueness causes?) It is a classic

wrestling poster. (When you say it’s a classic wrestling poster, what are you implying? Are you saying the time period of the setting is classic, that the story is taking place in the 70’s, for example? And what does a “classic” poster look like? Could you have provided the artist with a link to an example or included a reference photo? Damned right! So you’ve given the artist absolutely nothing to draw from. I feel sorry for whoever attempts to draw this because not only are they going to be confused, but more than likely, they’ll end up having to redraw the image [and subsequent pages, if this is what they have to look forward to] because they aren’t “getting it quite right”. And the fault is all yours, my friend.) Everything looks exciting and lively. (How do you expect the artist to convey this? I can’t even visualize it in my OWN head. Think about it: When you go to a wrestling event, or even watch one on TV, is the crowd going wild as they enter the building? No. Are they going wild when the matches haven’t even started? No. The only time they look excited is when a major, fleeting action has taken place, something that causes a sudden shock or surprise. “Exciting and lively”? Uh… no.)

Click here to read more.
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Connect With Facebook to "Like" This Thread

Old 08-01-2014, 11:15 AM   #2
Morganza
Black Pyramid Studios
 
Morganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,549
Morganza has disabled reputation

How many scripts like this one do you guys read?

I felt Steve's frustration while reading this, I hope the author acknowledges your hard work and rewrites it.
Morganza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 12:22 PM   #3
Steve Colle
Freelance Editor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,509
Steve Colle is a jewel in the roughSteve Colle is a jewel in the roughSteve Colle is a jewel in the rough

Quite a few, Morganza. Quite a few.

I have to admit, I'm wondering why the editor was being edited here, Steven. And I'm not talking about Andrew here, but rather myself. Was there so little to comment on that I was being called on nitpicks and suggested direction I was giving? I know "muscle bound" is a euphemism, but I felt it necessary to not only correct the writer, but those reading it on its usage. I've heard it misused so much over the years that, having the proper platform to educate, I took it. I don't understand why it was wrong and, as collaborators working to better the work and understanding of those reading our comments, I don't agree that nitpicking on nitpicking is showing a united front. As for the direction on wrestling moves and holds, my point was not to direct to a specific move, but rather to show that there are so many actual moves out there that are done so effectively that the artist, who may have no experience whatsoever on what constitutes a move or hold, could choose something or be given direction on how to brainstorm a real hold. It's a matter of guidance to those who don't know better in order to make something that actually works. We do it all the time.

This isn't a bitch session, but rather an opportunity to get things like this taken care of prior to it actually being posted, perhaps in an email between us, to discuss these little issues. Let's give the readers a united front instead of being the parents correcting each other in front of the kid. Been there, done that, and it shows nothing more than one's attempt to put the other in his/her place. That isn't us, my friend.
__________________
Every good story must accomplish two goals: Convey information effectively and incite an emotional response. If one or both of these are lacking, the story won't keep the attention of your audience.
Steve Colle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 03:22 PM   #4
crognus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 422
crognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the rough

I have to agree that if Andrew is charging for his services as a freelance editor that he is a swindler. You would assume, that even if he was a bad editor, he would at least get the formatting right.

Outside of formatting and panel descriptions, the general way the story is told is just godawful. There are so many missed oppurtunities on how to make it interesting. On the first page alone, they could argue about who was in charge of the masks while an off panel announcer continues to stall waiting for them to come out. That way you could introduce their names and build a little tension.
__________________
Aspiring writer.

Website: www.jaycrowcomics.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/jaycrowcomics
Twitter: @jaycrowcomics
crognus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 04:17 PM   #5
Schuyler
Registered User
 
Schuyler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Posts: 426
Schuyler is just really niceSchuyler is just really niceSchuyler is just really niceSchuyler is just really niceSchuyler is just really nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativesynergy View Post
I have to admit, I'm wondering why the editor was being edited here, Steven.
I understand what you are saying, Steve. But,

I like when you guys disagree because it lets us know the difference in your editing styles.
Schuyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 08:21 PM   #6
crognus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 422
crognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the rough

Steven you're a shyster, a crook, and a thief. Your title for this TPG is misleading. You actually do compliment him on his spelling.
__________________
Aspiring writer.

Website: www.jaycrowcomics.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/jaycrowcomics
Twitter: @jaycrowcomics
crognus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 09:20 PM   #7
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativesynergy View Post
Quite a few, Morganza. Quite a few.

I have to admit, I'm wondering why the editor was being edited here, Steven. And I'm not talking about Andrew here, but rather myself. Was there so little to comment on that I was being called on nitpicks and suggested direction I was giving? I know "muscle bound" is a euphemism, but I felt it necessary to not only correct the writer, but those reading it on its usage. I've heard it misused so much over the years that, having the proper platform to educate, I took it. I don't understand why it was wrong and, as collaborators working to better the work and understanding of those reading our comments, I don't agree that nitpicking on nitpicking is showing a united front. As for the direction on wrestling moves and holds, my point was not to direct to a specific move, but rather to show that there are so many actual moves out there that are done so effectively that the artist, who may have no experience whatsoever on what constitutes a move or hold, could choose something or be given direction on how to brainstorm a real hold. It's a matter of guidance to those who don't know better in order to make something that actually works. We do it all the time.

This isn't a bitch session, but rather an opportunity to get things like this taken care of prior to it actually being posted, perhaps in an email between us, to discuss these little issues. Let's give the readers a united front instead of being the parents correcting each other in front of the kid. Been there, done that, and it shows nothing more than one's attempt to put the other in his/her place. That isn't us, my friend.
No worries.

Check your email in a little bit.
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 10:02 PM   #8
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by crognus View Post
I have to agree that if Andrew is charging for his services as a freelance editor that he is a swindler. You would assume, that even if he was a bad editor, he would at least get the formatting right.
Yeah, I hated to say it. Absolutely hated to say it. It brought up some memories that I'd rather not go into.

Calling someone a swindler isn't something that I'm normally comfortable with. However, when looking at what was sent, there wasn't anything else I could really say. There's no defending this.

If it's a co-written project and one of the co-writers is an editor, how did it leave their hands like this?

If it's written by someone else and sent to me like this by the editor, why didn't they do their job?

If it's written by someone else and it was edited, then the editor doesn't know how to do their job.

There's just no way that this is going to go well. I knew that as soon as I saw the script.
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold

Last edited by Steven Forbes; 08-08-2014 at 10:45 PM.
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 11:44 PM   #9
crognus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 422
crognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativesynergy View Post
I've heard it misused so much over the years that, having the proper platform to educate, I took it.
So to farther clarify, irregardless of the fact that "musclebound" was a euphemism, when people don't use words how they are suppose to it makes you nauseous?
__________________
Aspiring writer.

Website: www.jaycrowcomics.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/jaycrowcomics
Twitter: @jaycrowcomics
crognus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2014, 02:58 AM   #10
Steve Colle
Freelance Editor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,509
Steve Colle is a jewel in the roughSteve Colle is a jewel in the roughSteve Colle is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by crognus View Post
So to farther clarify, irregardless of the fact that "musclebound" was a euphemism, when people don't use words how they are suppose to it makes you nauseous?
Comments and sarcasm like this are what causes threads to go completely off topic with personal jabs leading to hard feelings all around. I'm not going there. Let's keep the conversation where it belongs, okay?
__________________
Every good story must accomplish two goals: Convey information effectively and incite an emotional response. If one or both of these are lacking, the story won't keep the attention of your audience.
Steve Colle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2014, 07:54 AM   #11
LukePierce
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 108
LukePierce is a jewel in the roughLukePierce is a jewel in the roughLukePierce is a jewel in the rough

Jesus goddamned Christ, that was brutal to read.

I like seeing how there are different editing styles because it does make you consider how you need to submit your script. Sure, the guidance is there for what the script should look like, but every editor does have their personal likes and dislikes. That said, I'm utterly struggling to see how Andrew is an editor as well, because that script was unbelievable.
LukePierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2014, 08:57 AM   #12
crognus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 422
crognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativesynergy View Post
Comments and sarcasm like this are what causes threads to go completely off topic with personal jabs leading to hard feelings all around. I'm not going there. Let's keep the conversation where it belongs, okay?
I wasn't trying make a personal jab Steve, I was just trying to be silly. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I just wanted to lighten the mood. I'll keep on topic.

I don't really have much more to say about the script anyway. There was just too much bad that there's not too much new for me to learn. Time to read some older TPG posts
__________________
Aspiring writer.

Website: www.jaycrowcomics.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/jaycrowcomics
Twitter: @jaycrowcomics
crognus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 07:49 AM   #13
SamRoads
Also known as Felix
 
SamRoads's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cardiff, UK
Posts: 308
SamRoads has a spectacular aura aboutSamRoads has a spectacular aura about

The writer and editor have a very long journey ahead of them, learning the techniques of writing and editing. I hope this experience will act as an inspiration.

Good job Steves, turning an awkward script into a useful article. Each time you describe why an aspect of the script is flawed, it acts as a writing lesson.
SamRoads is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1997-2015 Digital Webbing, LLC