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Old 09-19-2014, 07:33 AM   #1
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TPG Week 195: Nothing Learned (and it's brutal)

Welcome back, one and all, to The Proving Grounds! This week, we have someone who's no stranger here: Luke Noonan! He's been here twice before. We also have Samantha LeBas in purple, I'm frantic in red, and we'll see what Luke does with an established character in


Harvey Dent: Red Right Hand


PAGE 1: six panels.


PANEL 1: page-wide establishing shot of grass and undergrowth on the outskirts of Gotham, with the familiar big city skyline filling the b/g. Itís night-time, and the scene is brightly lit by the moon. Thereís a very light drizzle of rain. The city skyline has the familiar blimp and moody offices and skyscrapers but NO Bat-signal. Fireworks of red, green and gold are exploding over the city.



CAP (police band): *...ten-ten, disturbance with possible shots fired on Seacord Avenue, twenty-one Charlie respond...* (I have little idea what a ten-ten is. The problem with ten-codes is that what once started out as universal has now become regional. So much so that when 9/11 happened, agencies couldn't talk to one another because they weren't speaking the same language. Plain language is the new recommendation when talking on the radio. Also, there is absolutely no need for the asterisks.12)


Click here to read more.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:49 AM   #2
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I can't believe you called me out, I'm not going to pile on this guys work. But I did try to make panel 6 work, it's a 2 min sketch, but you get the gist of it.



A lot of details will be left out because the size of the panel, the more panels you use, the less detail you get to show. Even less when you add lots of words.

This shot could zoom in closer to show the peoples faces on the train, but since they are not important to the story why do it.

Also I chose this angle for one reason, to show the light coming from the train and bouncing off Harvey.

No room to draw interior of the train, so I graffitied the outside.

I added all the elements in the panel description within the bounds of telling the story. And that's all that's needed here to move the story along.

I have no qualms about tweaking a script to make it work on the art table. That's part of the penciller's job, make sure the story is told by drawing in all the important information that needs to be there, adjusting the view accordingly.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:54 AM   #3
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Quote:
PANEL 4: long-shot of Harvey as he speeds the bike down the slope towards several sets of train-tracks which disappear into a wide tunnel, while a subway train covered in graffiti speeds towards the tunnel. From the distance between Harvey and the track and between the train and the tunnel, he is cutting it very fine, as they are all close to their destination. (There are problems here. The biggest is that Iím lost. If this were described left-to-right, what would it look like, Schuyler?)
Panel 4. A subway train covered in graffiti speeds towards a wide tunnel. In the background speeding down a slope on his bike is Harvey. He is headed towards us, soon to cross the tracks. The train is very close to the tunnel and Harvey has some distance before he hits the tracks. He is cutting it very fine.

I am not sure if this is what you wanted me to do or not. I was able to make sense of it but I had to check all the surrounding panels for context. It did say long shot of Harvey but for some reason I did not imagine him riding towards us in the panel. I suppose he could be riding away from us too but I think towards us is better.

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Old 09-19-2014, 12:01 PM   #4
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My attempt to clarify the panel description seems like it still lacks. Perhaps I should have included that the train traveled horizontally across the panel.

-Schuyler

Last edited by Schuyler; 09-19-2014 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Missing letters
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:02 PM   #5
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He should have bolded "Madness" instead of using italics right? Italics aren't used as a stressor in comics, but can be used for internal dialogue, in thought balloons, or in electric balloons, etc. It's used to seperate kinds of dialogue, not to stress words.
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganza View Post
I have no qualms about tweaking a script to make it work on the art table. That's part of the penciller's job, make sure the story is told by drawing in all the important information that needs to be there, adjusting the view accordingly.
Kudos, dude. You got more patience than me. I always figure that it's the writer's job to make sure the script is correct. If the penciller knows of a way to make a panel or page stronger, then I'd definitely love to hear their suggestions. But personally, I don't think a penciller should be expected to fix a panel or page that wasn't written correctly.

Lending my thoughts, for whatever they're worth...

Quote:
CAP (police band) *…unit eighty-two Baker: ten-eleven at Drumgo Jewellers (jewelers?), nineteen Forest Way, with possible intruders on premises…*
"Jewellers" is that funky non-american spelling. My opinion though; regardless of what spellings you use in your normal writing, you need to take into consideration the location when writing for dialogue and captions.
I always see Gotham as being an American (albeit fictional) city. I'm pretty sure that's how it's intended. The characters in TV series, movies, etc, always have American accents. So it looks kinda weird to me to see non-american spelling within the dialogue and captions.
Personally, if I'm writing dialogue set in America, I write that dialogue with American spelling.
Steven, please correct me if I'm way off track.

Quote:
CAP (Harvey, in italics): Or madness. (Why italics? Is that meant to be a stressor? What should he have done, Alyssa? 2/24)
Any emphasized dialogue should be underlined, if not underlined AND bold. Miss the underline, and letterers might miss the emphasized text.
Giving a notation to the letterer at the start of the text seems like it's setting things up for confusion. I mean, what happens when not EVERYTHING in a caption/word balloon should be stressed? Do you break dialogue up mid-sentence to write a note to the letterer? This could get confusing.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuut, I do jump to Luke's defense a little bit. In one of his previous TPG entries, Steve wrote this:

Quote:
I’ll tell you right at the get go, don’t underline your dialogue.
Looks like this little tidbit of advice stuck in Luke's noggin. The thing is, you gotta read the rest of what Steve said:

Quote:
This suggestion isn’t due to poor usage in formatting (because that is proper usage), but rather due to its OVERUSE. It’s obvious to me that you don’t have the ear to hear proper nuances in the speech. If you did, there wouldn’t be this much to-be-bolded text.
So Steve was advising Luke not to use underlining. But he didn't say that because underlining was wrong, he said that because Luke was waaaaay overusing emphasis. And if you're overusing emphasis to this degree, it's better not to use it at all. At least until one starts getting the hang of how people actually talk.

The dialogue is pretty purple. Steven used that phrase, and I'm using it too, because you see it HEAPS in newbie prose. Harvey's talking like a bard. I don't think it suits his character, or the modern world he's inhabiting.

Even when we look at the other characters, their dialogue doesn't read true. I recommend hunting down a bunch of scripts for movies that sold well and were known for good dialogue. Study the dialogue only (reading the rest will have you writing moving panels). Get a feel for how each voice "sounds" different, even in writing. Look at your own work, and make sure the voices suit the characters and sound realistic.

Quote:
Harvey is Harvey, and the one in italics is Big Harv, or Two-Face.
Oooooooh, I see now. Well, in this case, I would personally instruct the letterer in the beginning as to how the captions were going to play out. Then label the caption as being either Harvey or Two-Face. The letterer can choose a style for the Two-Face captions that looks all grungy or whatever.

But even if you do this, take into consideration what Steven said regarding the conjoined twins. I'm a twin (not conjoined), and we still have "shared memories" because we were at each other's side during so many different events. People just *don't* talk like someone wasn't there, when they were. Unless Harvey can't actually remember anything he does as Two-Face (i.e. he has serious gaps in his memory), and I don't think that's the case (correct me if I'm wrong, Steven).

Quote:
SFX: WH’DNNN-WH’DNNNUH
Quote:
SFX (from uzi): KA’KA’KAK
Sound effects need a lot of work. For starters, Luke has repeated a simple mistake that Steve called him out on (clearly) in his first TPG entry:

Quote:
Never put an apostrophe in a sound effect
Can't get much more clear than that.

The sound effects, as a whole, are not written well. I can't really talk, because I suck with sound effects, but this is perhaps an area that Luke should study more. Would an uzi really go "ka-ka-kak"? Is that the best representation of that sound? And I have no idea what the "wh-dnnn-wh-dnnnuh" is supposed to be.


I spent most of my time skimming the panel descriptions. I tried to read them properly in the beginning, but they were consistently written in a confusing manner or were just downright impossible to draw. I truly admire Luke's tenacity, given that he keeps submitting to TPG after negative reception, but I can kinda understand where Steven is coming from. I've read the previous entries, and there's no noticeable growth. Either Luke is spending so much time between writing scripts that he's forgetting what he's learned, or he's not trying hard enough. That's not to say that he's lazy, just that he's not pushing himself as hard as required to see the results in his work.

Here's a genuine question, too: how many comics does Luke actually read? If he reads a bunch, how many of them are pro quality (i.e. published by Image, Marvel, or DC, rather than just web-comics written by newbies)? This entry reads like Luke is a huge movie/show/game fan, but not much of a comic reader. Correct me if I'm wrong, dude!
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Old 09-20-2014, 02:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganza View Post
I can't believe you called me out, I'm not going to pile on this guys work. But I did try to make panel 6 work, it's a 2 min sketch, but you get the gist of it.



A lot of details will be left out because the size of the panel, the more panels you use, the less detail you get to show. Even less when you add lots of words.

This shot could zoom in closer to show the peoples faces on the train, but since they are not important to the story why do it.

Also I chose this angle for one reason, to show the light coming from the train and bouncing off Harvey.

No room to draw interior of the train, so I graffitied the outside.

I added all the elements in the panel description within the bounds of telling the story. And that's all that's needed here to move the story along.

I have no qualms about tweaking a script to make it work on the art table. That's part of the penciller's job, make sure the story is told by drawing in all the important information that needs to be there, adjusting the view accordingly.
It's not about dogpiling on the work. It's about better writing.

Now, let's take another look at the sketch you graciously provided.

First, thank you for it. I don't know about anyone else, but I greatly appreciate it.

But looking at it, it's very easy to see problems that I alluded to.

First, foremost, and biggest: subway tunnels aren't large enough to hold both the train as well as have enough space to have some guy riding a motorcycle. The tunnels are built basically to contain the train and that's it.

Now, the camera angle used here is a nice 3/4 view. However, is the camera itself in the wall of the tunnel? There's a bend, which helps to give more space, but again, the tightness that should be in the tunnel isn't here.

This isn't a failure on your part, Morgan. You drew what was in the script. Editorially, this doesn't work, because subway tunnels aren't constructed that way.
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Old 09-20-2014, 02:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schuyler View Post
Panel 4. A subway train covered in graffiti speeds towards a wide tunnel. In the background speeding down a slope on his bike is Harvey. He is headed towards us, soon to cross the tracks. The train is very close to the tunnel and Harvey has some distance before he hits the tracks. He is cutting it very fine.

I am not sure if this is what you wanted me to do or not. I was able to make sense of it but I had to check all the surrounding panels for context. It did say long shot of Harvey but for some reason I did not imagine him riding towards us in the panel. I suppose he could be riding away from us too but I think towards us is better.

-Schuyler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schuyler View Post
My attempt to clarify the panel description seems like it still lacks. Perhaps I should have included that the train traveled horizontally across the panel.

-Schuyler
Bingo! That's what I wanted. How the train was traveling needed to be included. Now, finish it: is the train traveling from right to left, or left to right? Remember to note what page you're on in your decision, and tell us all why that's important.

Good job so far. Let's just finish it up.
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Old 09-20-2014, 02:46 AM   #9
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Lot's o' stuff. Let's go through it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
Lending my thoughts, for whatever they're worth...



"Jewellers" is that funky non-american spelling. My opinion though; regardless of what spellings you use in your normal writing, you need to take into consideration the location when writing for dialogue and captions.
I always see Gotham as being an American (albeit fictional) city. I'm pretty sure that's how it's intended. The characters in TV series, movies, etc, always have American accents. So it looks kinda weird to me to see non-american spelling within the dialogue and captions.
Personally, if I'm writing dialogue set in America, I write that dialogue with American spelling.
Steven, please correct me if I'm way off track.
You're not off track at all. Gotham, Metropolis, Central City, Keystone City...these are all supposed to be in the USA. Personally, I believe that it's a misspelling and not a regional thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
Any emphasized dialogue should be underlined, if not underlined AND bold. Miss the underline, and letterers might miss the emphasized text.
Giving a notation to the letterer at the start of the text seems like it's setting things up for confusion. I mean, what happens when not EVERYTHING in a caption/word balloon should be stressed? Do you break dialogue up mid-sentence to write a note to the letterer? This could get confusing.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuut, I do jump to Luke's defense a little bit. In one of his previous TPG entries, Steve wrote this:



Looks like this little tidbit of advice stuck in Luke's noggin. The thing is, you gotta read the rest of what Steve said:



So Steve was advising Luke not to use underlining. But he didn't say that because underlining was wrong, he said that because Luke was waaaaay overusing emphasis. And if you're overusing emphasis to this degree, it's better not to use it at all. At least until one starts getting the hang of how people actually talk.
Yeah, I didn't understand what was going on with the italics until later, and that just made it worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
The dialogue is pretty purple. Steven used that phrase, and I'm using it too, because you see it HEAPS in newbie prose. Harvey's talking like a bard. I don't think it suits his character, or the modern world he's inhabiting.

Even when we look at the other characters, their dialogue doesn't read true. I recommend hunting down a bunch of scripts for movies that sold well and were known for good dialogue. Study the dialogue only (reading the rest will have you writing moving panels). Get a feel for how each voice "sounds" different, even in writing. Look at your own work, and make sure the voices suit the characters and sound realistic.
See this? This is good advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
Oooooooh, I see now. Well, in this case, I would personally instruct the letterer in the beginning as to how the captions were going to play out. Then label the caption as being either Harvey or Two-Face. The letterer can choose a style for the Two-Face captions that looks all grungy or whatever.

But even if you do this, take into consideration what Steven said regarding the conjoined twins. I'm a twin (not conjoined), and we still have "shared memories" because we were at each other's side during so many different events. People just *don't* talk like someone wasn't there, when they were. Unless Harvey can't actually remember anything he does as Two-Face (i.e. he has serious gaps in his memory), and I don't think that's the case (correct me if I'm wrong, Steven).
Again, you're not wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post

The sound effects, as a whole, are not written well. I can't really talk, because I suck with sound effects, but this is perhaps an area that Luke should study more. Would an uzi really go "ka-ka-kak"? Is that the best representation of that sound? And I have no idea what the "wh-dnnn-wh-dnnnuh" is supposed to be.
That's supposed to be the engine of the motorcycle.

Good work here, Alyssa.
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Old 09-20-2014, 06:21 AM   #10
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I think I kinda gave away my ignorance of the Batman mythos. Glad to see I wasn't off track.
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Old 09-20-2014, 08:30 AM   #11
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Bingo! That's what I wanted. How the train was traveling needed to be included. Now, finish it: is the train traveling from right to left, or left to right? Remember to note what page you're on in your decision, and tell us all why that's important.

Good job so far. Let's just finish it up.
It is page one and I want the train to go from left to right.

I don't want the train driving me back out of my book. The direction of the train is important because as a vehicle in motion it will lead the readers eyes.

Not sure, but I think I nailed that one, Steven.

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Old 09-20-2014, 12:49 PM   #12
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You sure did.

Good job!
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Old 09-21-2014, 08:29 AM   #13
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Ouch. REALLY, ouch. Not that I didn't know what to expect from Proving Grounds, but I really thought this time would be so different, I was expecting praise on what an improvement this was compared to the drek I gave you last time I submitted... oh well.
I don't have a lot of time right now, but I will give a full reply to your critiques by tomorrow, and needless to say, thanks a lot for your time.

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Old 09-22-2014, 12:20 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Luke Noonan View Post
Ouch. REALLY, ouch. Not that I didn't know what to expect from Proving Grounds, but I really thought this time would be so different, I was expecting praise on what an improvement this was compared to the drek I gave you last time I submitted... oh well.
This...this is the funniest thing I've read in a while.

I don't see how there can be 97 words in a single panel in an eight-panel page, but praise is expected.

I don't see how there can be 97 words in a single panel in an eight-panel page, and think that is an improvement.

I don't see how there can be 97 words in a single panel in an eight-panel page, and there not be any counting to do some trimming/rewriting.

This sounds terrible, but I really don't see how this is even a little bit defensible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Noonan View Post
I don't have a lot of time right now, but I will give a full reply to your critiques by tomorrow, and needless to say, thanks a lot for your time.

LN
Sure thing. Looking forward to it.
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:48 AM
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:51 AM   #15
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This...this is the funniest thing I've read in a while.

I don't see how there can be 97 words in a single panel in an eight-panel page, but praise is expected.

I don't see how there can be 97 words in a single panel in an eight-panel page, and think that is an improvement.

I don't see how there can be 97 words in a single panel in an eight-panel page, and there not be any counting to do some trimming/rewriting.

This sounds terrible, but I really don't see how this is even a little bit defensible.
Do the layout, size and main visual focus of the panels make a difference? On panel 1 of page 4, I intended for the focus to be on the aerosol canister in Harvey's hand on the right of the panel. The captions and speech-bubble would have framed that by being stacked on the left of the panel. Panel 4 would also have been smaller than the other panels and inset. Similar things would have applied for page 5. I didn't say any of that in the script, but it would have been specified, probably with the visual refs sheet, for the artist (since this was written just as a sample, it was never intended to be drawn, but if there had been an artist involved, that's what I would have done).
I know it was a tight squeeze, but I just thought if it conceivably could be drawn, then try - if the artist thumbnailed it and couldn't fit it in, or had a better idea, then go with that instead, but I thought it conceivably could be drawn, and it would've been a mistake to sacrifice dialogue without knowing otherwise for sure. If I was wrong, I was wrong.
On other points:

Quote:
CAP (police band): *…ten-ten, disturbance with possible shots fired on Seacord Avenue, twenty-one Charlie respond…* (I have little idea what a ten-ten is. The problem with ten-codes is that what once started out as universal has now become regional. So much so that when 9/11 happened, agencies couldn’t talk to one another because they weren’t speaking the same language. Plain language is the new recommendation when talking on the radio.
Understood. I just based the code-speak on the New York PD codes, since the realistic aspects of Gotham are generally based on NY. Same for the name of the subway station.

Quote:
PANEL 2: medium shot of Harvey Dent on his motorbike in his flak vest and leather (see visual ref) and he is putting his crash helmet on with head lowered so we can’t see his face. Though his bike has no headlight, he is lit by the moonlight.(How old is he here?)
All aspects of his appearance would be in the visual reference sheet, main characters first, and not described in the panel descriptions. Same for all the characters. Sorry, I didn't mention that at the start.

Quote:
CAP (Harvey, in italics): That’s not so crazy.(What is not so crazy?)(4)
To let things happen randomly instead of trying to control them, “to let go of the wheel and just let the pieces fall”, ie to be Two-Face.

Quote:
PANEL 6: med-shot from the side, as Harvey speeds along the tunnel on the bike, facing from the right of the panel towards the left, while the train also speeds along beside him in the very close b/g. The tyres of the motorbike are smouldering(smoldering) (UK spelling, like tyres.). We can see the occupants of the carriage are, spaced evenly around, a homeless man asleep, a middle-aged black businesswoman reading a paper, and a teenage goth boy listening to an ipod. None of them notice Harvey next to the train. The inside of the carriage also is full of graffiti. The only light in the panel comes from the inside of the train carriage, and is cast over the right-hand half of Harvey facing the train, while the left-hand half of him facing us the reader is in blackness. (Where’s the camera? Morgan! You’re an artist. Tell me truly: can this panel be drawn the way it’s described? I’m going to say “no.”)
Morganza's gracious sketch nailed it just as I intended.

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(The gargoyle comment crosses the line for me. There you stop merely obscuring the speaker’s identity for dramatic effect and start actively misdirecting. You are almost lying to the audience. They will lose faith in you.)

First, there is a grand total of 214 words in these six panels. Over a third—a third!—are in the first panel.

Some of it is mitigated by the fact that these are captions. Captions don’t take up as much space as word balloons, but still, there’s going to be a whole bunch of covered art on this first page.

Luke has forgotten to describe things from left to right, and then seemingly goes out of his way in order to be confusing. Panel 6? I shouldn’t have to work that hard on a panel that can’t be drawn.
It was deliberate that Harvey and the train were going from right to left. I thought it looked better that way. But if that's a mistake, I was wrong.

The ten codes. I don’t mind them, really, but I want you to understand that there’s a growing movement to get rid of them. Plain language.

I’m going to say something, and no one should be surprised about my saying it. The dialogue here is terrible. Not wretched—it hasn’t sunk that far—but it is not “good” in the accepted definition of the word.

It’s overwrought. It’s damned near purple. It’s almost hurtful to read. Gargoyle? Really?

What is the dialogue saying? What is it that you’re trying to say through it? There was a point where it was just okay, and then you fell in love with yourself and continued to write, and then people weren’t wondering what was trying to be said, they were wondering how far you would go. And you went far, Luke. You went far.
With the inner monologue I was trying to do four things: I was trying to show that he is a lawyer and therefore an emotive speaker, and that at this point in canon he is a changed man, reformed. Also that the only person he opens up to is himself, much like Batman. Also that his verbose and poetic reference to himself as a protector etc is supposed to sound overblown, desperately hopeful and obsessive, and when his Big Bad Harv side speaks in italics it sounds more grounded and realistic (ie so his bad side is the truly sensible one, and his good side is just deluded). Same with when he gets sentimental later remembering childhood, and his other voice interrupts.
The gargoyle bit was because “guardian angel” didn't sound appropriate for him, while a gargoyle as a symbol is Gotham-like and Batman-like, and, like Harvey's true nature as Two-Face, it's ugly.
But if all that never came off, then I failed.

Quote:
PANEL 1: med-shot of a GCPD officer as he takes cover from gunfire behind the rear-end of his squad car, his pistol drawn, and speaks urgently into his radio. Bullet holes pepper the car rear bonnet, and one rear headlight is smashed. Another cop lies beside him on the sidewalk with a gunshot wound in the left ribs. (Rear bonnet? Isn’t that the boot? Rear headlight? I’m quite sure that’s called a taillight. I’m glad that we know front from rear, but we should also know some pretty common things, such as taillight. At least there won’t be any confusion.)
Call me anal, I was just trying to avoid confusion (for all the good that did...)

Quote:
1st COP: This is officer Matt Royden requestin’ back-up and ambulance at seventeen Fox Lane, the back of Drumgo jewellery store, we have officer down! Three suspects armed and headin’ towards Forest Way, might be headin’ for Safire Street station… (Why isn’t he called Matt Roydon, 1st COP?)
Because he is only seen in this panel, so I thought 1st COP was sufficient.

Quote:
PANEL 2: med-shot of the subway turnstiles just inside the station, and the overhead sign reads: 22 St and Forest Way. Dizhuo (see vis refs) is jumping over the top of a turnstile. Behind him, Kui hurries towards the stiles, holding his knife up prominently, and is glancing back towards Benny. Behind Kui, in the b/g, Benny is emerging in a run from the bottom of the stairway. On the left of the passage before the turnstiles, the same businesswoman from Panel 6 of Page 1 recoils in frightg as Kui passes, while a man in casual hoody, jeans and sneakers is also ducking away from the turnstile. On the other side of the passage from them, the goth teen from Panel 6 of Page 1 has backed up against the wall and stares at Benny’s gun in alarm. Visible on one wall is a poster showing a ring of silhouette paper cut-out people with linked hands with the title: OCCUPY WFC. (This is hard to follow, why is it so hard to follow? I’m going
to figure it out.)
(It’s hard to follow because it isn’t described either left to right or from front to back/back to front. It’s scattered.)
It was conscious that I didn't describe the layout of the room, I just described what the characters were doing individually, what order Dizhuo, Kuiand then Benny were in, and that the businesswoman and the guy in the hoodie were on the left and the boy with the ipod was on the right. The layout of the room and the placement of the turnstiles would've been in a visual reference document (see vis refs). I also didn't specify which wall the Occupy poster would be on because I didn't mind where it was, it just had to be visible.

Quote:
PANEL 3: long-shot of the three of them as they rush down the second stairs and on to the subway platform: Dizhuo is stumbling and almost falling, Kui rushing after him and Benny alongside Kui. The platform is empty apart from the three jewel thieves. On the left of the panel, we see a train pulling away, going towards the direction the three of them have just come from, as it is heading into a tunnel-mouth level with the opening of the stairway they’ve just run down. (Moving panel.)
I should've known better.

Quote:
PANEL 4: med-shot of the three of them as they reach the train as it is pulling away, with motion lines as it moves faster (Really? No.). Kui is the first to reach, and he is grabbing frantically at the nearest doors, while Dizhuo is a few paces behind, looking on in dismay. Benny is hurrying up to them, and looks troubled. (Moving panel.)
Same.

Quote:
SFX: WH’DNNN-WH’DNNNUH(where are these SFX coming from?)
They are both from the train, but they are not linked visually to it in the panel because the train is right next to them and the sound is meant to be all around Dizhuo, Kui and Benny. This is the reason that when Harvey rides his motorbike right at them in the next panel, they don't hear him coming.

Quote:
SFX: WH’DNNN-WH’DNNUHH(Who is Mr. Xioa? The characters confusion is adding unneeded confusion for the reader.)
I wanted to show that Dizhuo is polite and afraid of Benny, and that Benny is the leader here, but if it's confusing, I failed.

Quote:
I’m wasting my time.

Anyway, to give more direction that won’t be used: subways have platforms. That’s where people stand. The rails are lower than the platforms, because the wheels are underneath the train and aren’t enclosed by anything. The car rides on top of the wheels. There is no hump in the middle of the car, right? The platform is there so that the riders do not have to step up in order to board the train.
With that being said, how does Harv get from the place where he is on the tracks to the platform without a jump of some kind?
Here's a visual reference of a NY subway train, one of a few I had in mind when I wrote this (not that I planned for it to be drawn, of course, but I thought the details through anyway):

http://static.businessinsider.com/im...0010/image.jpg

I would have (if this was going to be drawn) have specified in the visual refs that the ledge you can see on the left of the image is wider, wide enough for a person to move easily along and even (at a tight and very dangerous squeeze) just wide enough for Harvey to ride his bike along it. This would've been evident on Page 1, where we see him entering the tunnels, and on Panel 5 of Page 2, where we see Harvey riding out of the tunnel towards us in the background. Even if that doesn't reflect reality in NY, I would have stretched it for this tunnel in Gotham, in order to fit the story.

Quote:
PANEL 1: med-shot of Benny as he is falling towards Dizhuo (who is off-panel)(on which side), as Benny’s head has just impacted with the glass window of a train carriage as it speeds past, smashing the glass into fragments and spinning him fast off his feet with it’s momentum. He is protected from cuts by his mask. The uzi is tumbling from his grip.(If someone’s head hits a moving train, wouldn’t it cause a whole bunch of damage to the aforementioned head? Am I crazy? [about this, not in general, no questions there]) (No, you’re not crazy. This character is dead because they’ve more than likely been decapitated.)
It does stretch credibility, but if the train is not yet moving at full speed and Benny only hit the glass of a window, not the metal surface, it's not impossible he'd be bruised and knocked over but not otherwise injured. I thought it was credible, but you are the editors.

Quote:
HARVEY (italics): Do I look like the goddamn Batman? (This is a terrible line. Most have never seen the Batman, and he likes it that way. He wants to retain as much mystery as he can, and likes being thought of as an urban legend.)


It's a deliberate in-joke/shout-out to Frank Miller's controversial All Star Batman and Robin. It's something canon Batman would never say, but I thought plausible that Harvey would. I think it was a terrible line when Miller wrote it, but that that was deliberate. I was just trying to be clever here (again).

Quote:
DIZHUO (OP): <Kui, the Bat-Man is dead, this is the Russian: the “Cage-Beast”!>(Exclamation mark goes inside quote. This is a silly thing for this fellow to think, Harvey just spoke *presumably* with no accent. Why would he think that he’s the Russian?)
Because Dizhuo doesn't notice the accent as he is unused to English, he just believes BM is dead and the KGBeast is hunting people working for Yun Wei, so he sees Harvey and assumes he is the KGBeast. He even mistakes KGBeast's name as being 'cage' and then 'beast', not realizing what the KGB part represents. He is supposed to seem confused by Gotham and unused to superheroes. I realize that again I was unclear.

Quote:
PANEL 5: low-angle med-shot of Harvey, looking down at Benny. He has just lifted the visor of his helmet, and his expression is stern.(How did Harvey get on platform 9 3/4 here? He was on the narrow maintenance panel, they were on the main platform… did I miss something? Is he Two-Faced here?)
He rode off of the narrow maintenance platform and straight on to the main platform. In the visual refs I would have specified that they meet up at the mouth of the tunnel.

Quote:
P3, and someone should be dead, by all rights.

Besides that, we have more panels that are difficult to parse.

There’s also the fact that, while we have action, we have no real reason for the conflict. What have these people done? Where did the police band go? More dropsies.

Really, I’m bored. What’s Harv asking here? What does he want to know, and why does he want to know it? How did he know to go to the train? Batman reasons things out. Harvey isn’t as intelligent as Batman. This seems to have been either a coincidence or psychic ability.

No, I’ll just call it what it is: bad storytelling.
Harvey isn't as intelligent as Batman, but I wanted to get across that he is still extremely intelligent, and not relying on the coin to make decisions lets him demonstrate that, and also that he knows Gotham almost as well as BM. He was the one listening to the police band, and when he heard what was said on Panel 1 of Page 2 he used the subway tunnel to get to the nearby station right away. It's not specified in the script, but there is a scanner on his bike for intercepting radio. He's supposed to be imitating Batman's methods, but in a less sophisticated way.

There's more I was going to say on different issues, but it sounds like I'm just making excuses (which is the last thing I intend), so I'll just accept the script is a fail and end here. I'll submit again to the Proving Grounds, some time, but I won't make it for a while so you can be in no doubt I've got practice in.
Thanks again,

LN
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