Go Back   Digital Webbing Forums > Hosted Forums > ComixTribe > The Proving Grounds

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-27-2014, 08:12 PM   #1
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

TPG Week 183: A Clinic In Wrong


Hello, and welcome back to another installment of The Proving Grounds! This week, we have a new Brave One in Ben Goldsmith. We also have the return of Steve Colle! We also have the return of the rant! So, we have Steve in the soothing blue, I'm in the hyped-up red, and we'll all see how Ben handles

Widow's Peak

I’ll tell you right now, before I even begin, that the formatting is a real turn-off. (You should have seen it beforehand. I was kind and told Ben that he had a choice: to either beef up the panel descriptions to something an artist can work with and an editor can see, or leave it. Leaving it...wouldn't have gone well. It would have gone a lot worse than it's going to go today.) I’m already seeing a lack of page breaks, a point form look to your panel set up (with P.1 and onward having the indented descriptions), and a few other gripes that make this look extremely unprofessional. (I don't know about unprofessional. Format is format—I just care if it's consistent.) I know Steven is going to comment on the fact that this is 11 pitch instead of 12 (insert rant about pitch here!), so add that to your list of things against you right out of the starting gate. As an editor, if I were to receive this from any writer, I wouldn’t give it the time of day (Which is deep. Steve is much, much kinder than I am. There was a time when he would have gone out of his way to help a writer with format. All of you have changed him.). If you want to be a serious comic book writer, you have to know how to present your work. There are tons of examples of script formats online. DARK HORSE COMICS even provided aspiring writers with a sample of what they look for in a format at http://images.darkhorse.com/darkhors...rmatGuides.pdf. Do the research, do the work, and you’ll better your chances of getting your script past that editor’s impulsive trash dump. (Not so impulsive. A good editor has a practiced eye, so the trash dump shouldn't be impulsive at all. Just because the consideration wasn't long and deliberate doesn't mean it's impulsive.)

Pg 1(5 Panels) (Right off the bat, you haven’t spelled out the word “Page” and you’ve missed a space between the 1 and the opening bracket. This shows me that you didn’t proofread and didn’t care to go beyond simple abbreviations. It’s showing laziness and a lack of respect for your own work. Take yourself seriously and others will, too.)(Commenting because the word “page” wasn't spelled out? Know what this means? It means this script really, really got under Steve's skin. Me? I don't care, as long as you're consistent.)

P.1 Establishing shot of a lonely grey pier jutting out 30 feet from a stone filled base where it touches down at the beach. The pier resides above cold black New England waters foaming where the waves hit the wooden stands that support the structure. The angle is from the beach to the water with the pier on the right. It is Autumn. Grey hues. (I’m having trouble getting a visual sense of the setting based on what you’ve written here. In some ways, you’re being specific with things like “30 feet” [Is the artist supposed to measure?] and “cold black New England waters” [How do they differ from any other waters hitting the shoreline and pier supports of any other place in the world?] (In the northeastern US, the water gets damned COLD!). Then, you don’t give enough clear information on where your camera is placed. You say it’s a “lonely grey pier”, but that would tell me that it’s empty of people and props, which means it’s a shot from the top of the pier in order to see these things. However, you also give the impression that the shot is from underneath, which makes the opening information moot. Choose a specific location for your camera and work with that.) (Also, we read from left to right. If the pier is jutting out from the right, that means it's going to be leading the eye to the left, and back out of the book. Which might be a good thing.)

Click here to read more.
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Connect With Facebook to "Like" This Thread

Old 06-27-2014, 10:52 PM   #2
Alyssa
@AlyCro
 
Alyssa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aussieland
Posts: 447
Alyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to all

And now, my dear friends, we all know how Steven Forbes became the man he is today.

I have to admit I somewhat skimmed the panel descriptions, but only because they kinda made my head hurt. They were both incredibly specific AND bafflingly (Stephen King would crucify me for using that word) vague.
I'm sure there's some kind of superpower involved there, being simultaneously specific and vague.

I am going to defend Ben on something, though. In another life, I went to film school. I saw a lot of scripts that looked a lot like this one. The semi-random montage of locale images, all silent? You see that in some films, usually indie/low-budget films. The kind you see in art house theatres. It's been yonks since I saw 28 Days Later, but I *think* they did something similar there.
The problem is, this is missing context. If you're going to have it completely silent, you need to introduce your audience to context first. If not, you need dialogue and/or captions. As it stands, this is just confusing.

Also remember that what works for screen won't always work for comics. I get the distinct impression that this was written as a film script (if not deliberately, then subconsciously).

Quote:
If, by some miracle, you were telling an interesting story, and decided that your first words were going to come after a couple of pages of silence, what you’d want to do is to put that dialogue on an odd-numbered page. Why? Someone who isn’t Sam Read or Yannick Morin tell us why you’d want it on an odd-numbered page.
Okay, wait, I might have this. Ummmmm....
Because then you're in effect using the dialogue as incentive to turn the page?

Just as a sidenote- STEVE COLLE BACK DOIN' TPG! BOOYAH!
Alyssa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2014, 11:23 PM   #3
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
And now, my dear friends, we all know how Steven Forbes became the man he is today.
It isn't difficult. Years of reading atrocious scripts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
I have to admit I somewhat skimmed the panel descriptions, but only because they kinda made my head hurt. They were both incredibly specific AND bafflingly (Stephen King would crucify me for using that word) vague.
I'm sure there's some kind of superpower involved there, being simultaneously specific and vague.

I am going to defend Ben on something, though. In another life, I went to film school. I saw a lot of scripts that looked a lot like this one. The semi-random montage of locale images, all silent? You see that in some films, usually indie/low-budget films. The kind you see in art house theatres. It's been yonks since I saw 28 Days Later, but I *think* they did something similar there.
I'm glad you brought up film, Alyssa.

I got that feeling, too. (Of course, because I watch a lot of movies.) It felt like an opening montage for a movie. The problem is that it "ran" for too long. Comics aren't the equivalent of film. Time in comics is much more compressed. If this were a film, then the opening montage went on for about three minutes--after or without the opening credits to help break it up. And three minutes in film is about two minutes too long for a montage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
The problem is, this is missing context. If you're going to have it completely silent, you need to introduce your audience to context first. If not, you need dialogue and/or captions. As it stands, this is just confusing.
And bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
Also remember that what works for screen won't always work for comics. I get the distinct impression that this was written as a film script (if not deliberately, then subconsciously).
Quite possibly. I'm scared to go back and look at the original submission, though. I don't know the shape I'll be in afterward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
Okay, wait, I might have this. Ummmmm....
Because then you're in effect using the dialogue as incentive to turn the page?
Say it loud and say it proud, Alyssa!

(Also, this is the way you call on someone named Alyssa without making her sphincter clench...)

This answer is absolutely correct. After an opening montage, you can use dialogue on an odd-numbered page to get the reader to turn the page.

Of course, the caveat is that the dialogue is good.

Good work, Alyssa!
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2014, 12:03 AM   #4
Steve Colle
Freelance Editor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,509
Steve Colle is a jewel in the roughSteve Colle is a jewel in the roughSteve Colle is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
Just as a sidenote- STEVE COLLE BACK DOIN' TPG! BOOYAH!
I'll tell you honestly, my heart swelled and the smile on my face was just beaming when I saw this. Thank you so much, Alyssa. It's nice to be appreciated.

Yeah, I've seen the montage effect in film before, as well. But like Steven said, there's a big difference in the timing between film and comics. If Ben had done a single page of montage in a more ordered and deliberate fashion, then perhaps it might have worked, but because there was nothing tying everything together, it was just pictures, and not even pretty ones at that.

I'm also glad you picked up on the reasoning for the odd numbered page placement, Alyssa. It shows you're on the ball and actually reading and learning from what we're doing here at TPG. Good on you!

I have to ask, though, Steven: Who is Sam Read? Did Samantha change her last name and I didn't know about it? Were you thinking of Sam Roads and misspelled the last name. Damn it, man, enquiring minds want to know!

Nice to be back,

Steve
__________________
Every good story must accomplish two goals: Convey information effectively and incite an emotional response. If one or both of these are lacking, the story won't keep the attention of your audience.
Steve Colle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2014, 12:14 AM   #5
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativesynergy View Post
I have to ask, though, Steven: Who is Sam Read? Did Samantha change her last name and I didn't know about it? Were you thinking of Sam Roads and misspelled the last name. Damn it, man, enquiring minds want to know!
Dammit! Did I do it again?

DAMMIT!!!!

Too many damned Sam's!

Sam Roads, I'm changing your name. You are now Felix. Why? Because I'm a damned idiot.

At least I recognize it.

And yes, Steve, there is a Sam Read.

I'm an idiot.
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2014, 12:50 AM   #6
Alyssa
@AlyCro
 
Alyssa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aussieland
Posts: 447
Alyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to allAlyssa is a name known to all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Forbes View Post
(Also, this is the way you call on someone named Alyssa without making her sphincter clench...)
GAHDAMMIT Steven, I've already given you a rep point today for making me laugh. Now you'll just have to settle with me shooting drink out my nose.

Good to know I was on the right track, though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativesynergy View Post
I'll tell you honestly, my heart swelled and the smile on my face was just beaming when I saw this. Thank you so much, Alyssa. It's nice to be appreciated.
You're more than welcome, sir. I know I probably sound like a little tosser for how often I thank you guys for the effort you put into TPG, but you guys have seriously been my go-to resource for learning about comics. That's huge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Forbes View Post
I'm also glad you picked up on the reasoning for the odd numbered page placement, Alyssa. It shows you're on the ball and actually reading and learning from what we're doing here at TPG. Good on you!
I'm a little nerd. I love learning. That being said, a little story for you guys...

When I was in highschool, I got the same bloody English teacher for 3 years. I LOVE English, as a subject. I'd written a dozen novels by the time I was twelve years old (they were shit, but I was enthusiastic). This bloke wouldn't have found a more eager student. Except, I didn't learn jack-squat from him. He was dumb. He was actually a geography teacher, and got plonked into the English teaching role because of a teacher deficit. I was constantly correcting HIM in class (much to the pleasure of the "naughty kids" who enjoyed seeing him get owned). I hated, hated, HATED going to that English class, because of him. I'd quickly soar through my class work so I could pull out my notebook and work on my latest story. I resented the fact I knew more about writing than my bloody teacher.

So maybe this is my way of clawing back those shitty 3 years of English classes. You guys are actively teaching people how to write, AND you bloody well know what you're on about. That's a freakin godsend, in my books.

Welcome back, Steve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Forbes View Post
Dammit! Did I do it again?
Too many damned Sam's!
How the flip do you think I feel? You're Steven, Steve over there is back in action, I've got Stephen King on my bookshelf (I keep him in a little labeled jar), my friend's name is Stephen, and my dad's name is Steven. Three of my author clients are named Steven.

I swear. Too many bloody Sams.

Alyssa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 02:34 PM   #7
crognus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 422
crognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Forbes View Post

This answer is absolutely correct. After an opening montage, you can use dialogue on an odd-numbered page to get the reader to turn the page.

Of course, the caveat is that the dialogue is good.

Good work, Alyssa!
That's some good advice I think I'm going to work into my scripts. Hrm.
crognus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 02:42 PM   #8
crognus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 422
crognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativesynergy View Post
Yeah, I've seen the montage effect in film before, as well. But like Steven said, there's a big difference in the timing between film and comics. If Ben had done a single page of montage in a more ordered and deliberate fashion, then perhaps it might have worked, but because there was nothing tying everything together, it was just pictures, and not even pretty ones at that.
Steve
Comics are definitely a different medium. When I was reading The DC Guide To Writing Comics, I remember a part where Dennis O' Neil said something to the effect that in a comic the hook must occur on the first page.

Obviously this is a generalization, but I think if you're writing an amateur work, and no one knows who you are, this is especially true. You have one or two pages to interest the reader or they are going to move on.
crognus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 03:14 PM   #9
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

I honestly and wholeheartedly recommend reading the first 12 or so Bolts & Nuts columns--and not just because I wrote them. There is just a lot of information in there that books I've read have never gone into. (Thus, the title of the column.)

And when are you going to submit a script?
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 03:27 PM   #10
crognus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 422
crognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the roughcrognus is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Forbes View Post
I honestly and wholeheartedly recommend reading the first 12 or so Bolts & Nuts columns--and not just because I wrote them.
I've been going over them in reverse chronological order, but this might make more sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Forbes View Post
And when are you going to submit a script?
Probably when I have something other than Super to submit. There's some plot elements I don't want to give away. Although, I do have another project I have had in my head I might start writing. It's Manga style. How's your experience with that?

I feel like, because the pages are smaller, it affects the way they pace pages.
crognus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 03:41 PM   #11
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

Go to Pouch of Nuts. They're in chronological order there.

And I don't do manga. It holds no appeal for me. I don't know how to edit it.
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 04:23 PM   #12
Lovecraft13
Mac the Knife
 
Lovecraft13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,790
Lovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to behold

Steven, I notice you often mention page breaks in these sessions. If you have time, I was wondering if you could explain why you prefer them. Personally, I never use page breaks. No one ever complained.
__________________
My website
Lovecraft13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 04:43 PM   #13
Steven Forbes
Freelance Editor
 
Steven Forbes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the moment
Posts: 3,888
Steven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud ofSteven Forbes has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovecraft13 View Post
Steven, I notice you often mention page breaks in these sessions. If you have time, I was wondering if you could explain why you prefer them. Personally, I never use page breaks. No one ever complained.
Sure thing.

I hate, hate, HATE trying to look through a script and having to find the end of the page, or the beginning of another. That's from an editorial view.

From an artistic view, it also helps the aritsts because they don't have to hunt as much, either.

Now, if the script was printed (and it happens), then it becomes even harder to find something, for all parts of the creative team.

I always urge putting in a page break. Take pity on the creative team.

Does that help?
__________________
Learn to make comics at ComixTribe! Be part of the Tribe!
E-Mail me for your editing needs. Twitter: @stevedforbes
"Criticism is an acknowledgment of your ability to produce results." David Gerrold
Steven Forbes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014, 04:47 PM   #14
Lovecraft13
Mac the Knife
 
Lovecraft13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,790
Lovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to beholdLovecraft13 is a splendid one to behold

Yup. Thanks.
__________________
My website
Lovecraft13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 08:20 PM   #15
SamRoads
Also known as Felix
 
SamRoads's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cardiff, UK
Posts: 308
SamRoads has a spectacular aura aboutSamRoads has a spectacular aura about

Felix, you say?

Means trustworthy. Or cat.

I'll buy in.

F
SamRoads is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1997-2015 Digital Webbing, LLC