Let's talk about... handling art

[Scribbly]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by JimCampbell

I can't agree with that. American comics are a pretty standard size -- the only thing that tends to vary significantly is the Live area. I don't think it's asking a lot of any artist to understand the nuts and bolts of their profession.

You'll be surprised in knowing that different publishers are requesting different specs and formats and they varies according their own criteria and convenience.
More, when they are independent as is mentioned above.
From the full size (??)1200 dpi tiff line art, to the 11x17 JPG grayscale at 300 dpi. or 6.875x10.625 line art or grayscale at 600 dpi.
Or any variation of these.
Over that, as is mentioned above, some artists are reluctant of buying a scanner, less than, of buying a graphic program for resize their artwork.
Better for them, is to put all these pages in a box and FedEx to the publisher.

I recently received some B/W pages to use as positionals until the colorist got the final pages done, only to discover that these were: JPEGs, grayscale, and hadn't had the pencils properly erased from the boards after inking. Oh, and they were the wrong proportions.

So, "the inker" was the one who sent to you these pages with non erased pencils, not the artist.

I'm afraid I contacted the editor and suggested in no uncertain terms that if this particular artist expected to be paid like a professional, they should most definitely learn to submit their artwork like a professional.

So the editor, he didn't knew what quality and format of artwork was sent to you.

Which means that you are working with an artist, who is an ignorant about printing formats, and inker who don't erase the pages after inking them.
And an editor who's very negligent about everything.

[Fred Duran]

I'm a writer (or so I tell myself). I'm definitely no artist and I can barely even dream of calling myself a letterer (trying though!). But even still, I don't see the argument here.

If my script is messed up, the penciler either A) gives me a similarly messed up page or B) doesn't draw it at all (which is probably better for both of us in the long run). Let me be clear - I'm in NO WAY comparing writing a comic page to penciling or inking or coloring or lettering it, but it's essentially an assembly line, right? If we were making a car instead of a comic, and you were making the engine, wouldn't you want - even NEED - to know the size specifications, and how everything fits together? And moreover, if you got them wrong, could you really expect the guys down at painting and detailing to fix it?

-Fred

[Jason Arthur]

Originally Posted by Fred Duran

If we were making a car instead of a comic, and you were making the engine, wouldn't you want - even NEED - to know the size specifications, and how everything fits together? And moreover, if you got them wrong, could you really expect the guys down at painting and detailing to fix it?

-Fred

Excellent analogy.

-- J

[The DarkMind]

Originally Posted by Fred Duran

I'm a writer (or so I tell myself). I'm definitely no artist and I can barely even dream of calling myself a letterer (trying though!). But even still, I don't see the argument here.

If my script is messed up, the penciler either A) gives me a similarly messed up page or B) doesn't draw it at all (which is probably better for both of us in the long run). Let me be clear - I'm in NO WAY comparing writing a comic page to penciling or inking or coloring or lettering it, but it's essentially an assembly line, right? If we were making a car instead of a comic, and you were making the engine, wouldn't you want - even NEED - to know the size specifications, and how everything fits together? And moreover, if you got them wrong, could you really expect the guys down at painting and detailing to fix it?

-Fred

Holy crap Fred... I think that's the most intelligent thing I've ever heard you say I'm awe struck... which means I'll have to read your posts more often now

This analogy should be made into it's own post and then stickied in every forum across the net.

[Kep!]

Spot on correct. Everyone comes to the table with their skill set. Comic books, like jazz, are not a directed process (a leader, sure...but that's different). Each artist (writer, letterer, penciler, et al.) is expected to know how to ply their craft and work with the others of the team (A clarinetist must know rhythm though he is not a percussionist, yes?). A writer is supposed to understand that ten panels on a page with 100 words each is not correct...unless you have a really brilliant reason...a colorist MUST know that books are printed in CMYK (how often do we as letterers have to fix this? Three times last year alone for me), a letterer must know where the live is as well as parallel lines are going to cause a moire pattern, and a penciller damn well should know how to line an art board so it is the right ratio of size. Scanning is a talent any penciler is foolish NOT to know because it directly effects the quality of their work...but many choose to let someone else make them look like chumps. But a too large or over dpi'd scan is nothing compared to a mishappen under dpi scan...which happens when the artist in question doesn't take responsibility for themselves. Take responsibility. If you don't know how to do it, find someone who does...learn...evolve.

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by Kep!

Spot on correct. Everyone comes to the table with their skill set. Comic books, like jazz, are not a directed process (a leader, sure...but that's different). Each artist (writer, letterer, penciler, et al.) is expected to know how to ply their craft and work with the others of the team (A clarinetist must know rhythm though he is not a percussionist, yes?). A writer is supposed to understand that ten panels on a page with 100 words each is not correct...unless you have a really brilliant reason...a colorist MUST know that books are printed in CMYK (how often do we as letterers have to fix this? Three times last year alone for me), a letterer must know where the live is as well as parallel lines are going to cause a moire pattern, and a penciller damn well should know how to line an art board so it is the right ratio of size. Scanning is a talent any penciler is foolish NOT to know because it directly effects the quality of their work...but many choose to let someone else make them look like chumps. But a too large or over dpi'd scan is nothing compared to a mishappen under dpi scan...which happens when the artist in question doesn't take responsibility for themselves. Take responsibility. If you don't know how to do it, find someone who does...learn...evolve.

I wonder if, you ever thought why?
After the artist is sending the first page in a wrong size/format.
Maybe for ignorance, negligence, convenience or because he's merely
an unresponsible person.
Call this "phenomena" as you want.

Why, when the person in "charge of the project", call him manager, coordinator,
editor or whatsoever, why when he is receiving the first page in a
wrong format and size.
Because is him the first one who’s receiving the artwork, not you.
Why this person in charge is not calling immediately the artist/s in question and
requesting from him to correct this problem and send the total of
the remained pages in a proper format?
Which would solve the situation immediately.

But, apparently this persona never would do that.
Or at least, he never did it in the pointed cases.
Why do you think this never happen? This looks very coincidental isn't it?
Apparently, this "phenomena" is very spreaded.

Receiving the artwork in wrong format and instead to
asking the artist to correct it, or correcting it for himself,
this persona in charge is oblivious in sending the whole
work in wrong format to the next person in the line.
Maybe, you have the answer for this already.

[Jason Arthur]

Writers know jack shit about page sizes, resolution and the like. That's what they pay the artist for. To turn the work in for COMIC SIZED ART. Now, if this is for an American comic then it's 6.875 x 10.4375 and that should be well known to artists.

Yet somehow I think every letterer in this forum knows that size requirement and probably only 35-50% of the artists on here do.

So yeah, we'll fix it. For a fee.

-- J

[L Jamal]

Originally Posted by JasonArthur

Yet somehow I think every letterer in this forum knows that size requirement and probably only 35-50% of the artists on here do.

That's quite sad when you think about it.

[Thomas Mauer]

Originally Posted by Scribbly

I wonder if, you ever thought why?
After the artist is sending the first page in a wrong size/format.
Maybe for ignorance, negligence, convenience or because he's merely
an unresponsible person.
Call this "phenomena" as you want.

Why, when the person in "charge of the project", call him manager, coordinator,
editor or whatsoever, why when he is receiving the first page in a
wrong format and size.
Because is him the first one who’s receiving the artwork, not you.
Why this person in charge is not calling immediately the artist/s in question and
requesting from him to correct this problem and send the total of
the remained pages in a proper format?
Which would solve the situation immediately.

But, apparently this persona never would do that.
Or at least, he never did it in the pointed cases.
Why do you think this never happen? This looks very coincidental isn't it?
Apparently, this "phenomena" is very spreaded.

Receiving the artwork in wrong format and instead to
asking the artist to correct it, or correcting it for himself,
this persona in charge is oblivious in sending the whole
work in wrong format to the next person in the line.
Maybe, you have the answer for this already.

You're arguing that passing the buck is okay.

Every person involved in a project should be fiercely proud of their work, and should make sure from the outset that what they're doing is 100% correct--that no one down the line can fuck shit up because they know they've done a correct job.

This means that artists need to talk to their editors or publishers to find out what their size requirements are before they even start.

It's not the responsibility of a project leader, editor, or underpaid & overworked letterer to harp on the same old points again and again with the same artists continuing to not try to improve their knowledge (or colorists who continue to send RGB files when they know they're supposed to send CMYK).

[JimCampbell]

Originally Posted by Thomas Mauer

This means that artists need to talk to their editors or publishers to find out what their size requirements are before they even start.

Damn right. I mean, presumably, the artist(s) have confirmed with the editor what the deadline and the page rate is ... if the editor hasn't explicitly confirmed the artwork size, would it kill the artist to fucking ask?

The key point here -- I think -- is professional courtesy. It takes the artist no longer to draw the artwork at the right size than it does to draw it at the wrong size. The same is not true for the colorist, or the letterer, or whichever poor schmuck down the production chain notices the problem. We have to devote additional time for which we are not getting paid to sorting this shit out.

Mind you, I actually had an artist and a colorist flat out argue with me. The art was sized to the full bleed, but they'd treated the Trim line as if it was the Live boundary. They both went to the editor and said I was wrong and, in the end, I had to actually find a scan of a page of pencils on official Marvel board, marked up with Trim, Bleed and Live, caption it and send it to them.

That wasn't a total waste of my time at all.

Cheers!

Jim

[Kel Nuttall]

So, you think that is at the artists decision in what format they should send the artwork?
Incredible.

Why is it incredible that someone know their job??

It is an EDITOR decision.

At the indie level "editors" scarcely exist and the writers who are scrambling to supervise everything don't know what's what. They need to learn as well. But Ultimately if you're an artist drawing a standard comic for print you need to know this stuff so your work comes out right.


I'm not even going to respond to the rest of this drivel. I now remember why I seldom respond top your posts...

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by Kel Nuttall

Why is it incredible that someone know their job??


At the indie level "editors" scarcely exist and the writers who are scrambling to supervise everything don't know what's what. They need to learn as well. But Ultimately if you're an artist drawing a standard comic for print you need to know this stuff so your work comes out right.


I'm not even going to respond to the rest of this drivel. I now remember why I seldom respond top your posts...

Do you thing that an artist will dare of jeopardize his work upon a
files resizing? Please, give me a break.
What the artist does, is to send the artwork in the format and size that is requested by the project leader.
Also the artist is up to do every other adjustment that could be requested.

Doesn't ever crossed for your mind that is up to the project leader the idea
of letting the resizing of the pages as part of the letterer job?
The last thing to do before sending the work for printing?
Resizing, which, BTW is a very simple thing to do.
Just a setting of actions in Photoshop.

But, if resizing a file is a big deal to you, next time you can reject
to do a work that doesn’t came in the proper size to you.
In the same way that an artist could reject to work in a script that he
consider is not proper for him to do.

[Thomas Mauer]

Originally Posted by Scribbly

Do you thing that an artist will dare of jeopardize his work upon a
files resizing? Please, give me a break.
What the artist does, is to send the artwork in the format and size that is requested by the project leader.
Also the artist is up to do every other adjustment that could be requested.

We've been getting the following since the beginning on Popgun even though each artist gets an extensive email what to do, and also the above templates which rehash the whole thing as well right in Photoshop.

Unresized art
Wrong color space
Wrong color profile
Wrong live/bleed settings
Wrong spread dimensions
Wrong resolution
Artwork not flattened to the background
Alpha channels not removed
Not sent as TIFF with LZW compression as requested
If layers HAVE to be sent, ZIP compression on the layers not applied

We're currently wrapping up volume 4, and volume 5 is under way. Can you see why I'm sending everything back to the source and don't bother doing anything but open the files in Photoshop to check if everything is on the up and up?

That last line after the part I bolded is how it SHOULD be, but the way you phrased it is wishful thinking. A lot of artists need to be forced to do what they're supposed to do, and a large number are lost causes who won't ever do it.

Originally Posted by Scribbly

Doesn't ever crossed for your mind that is up to the project leader the idea
of letting the resizing of the pages as part of the letterer job?
The last thing to do before sending the work for printing?
Resizing, which, BTW is a very simple thing to do.
Just a setting of actions in Photoshop.

Have you yourself ever tried to prepare a comic for print in a timely manner.

The way you set up the production chain to go without a hitch and as efficiently as possible is to:

1. Let the artist scan his pencils and send them to the inker. If the artist inks himself or the artwork gets colored right on pencils, see 2.

2. The inker scans his inks, cleans up the artwork removing smudges, pencil lines, pre-rules, and any other dirt, then resizes to printsize.

3. The artist or inker sends the resized artwork (which is at the correct, final print size) to the colorist and letterer so they can work at the same time and lettering placements are correct.

4. Whoever puts together the print files does so and sends it off.


Under your proposition, this is what would happen nearly every time:

1. Artist/inker sends unresized artwork to colorist

2. Colorist colors everything.

3. Letterer resizes colored artwork, notices missing bleed art and gradients on the margins of nearly every single page.

4. Colorist has to add extra bleed art including lineart, though most often gradients just because the artist/inker couldn't be bothered to turn in correctly formatted pages.


In other words, both the letterer and colorist have more work on their hand while they are the two who get the least amount of money on a book and the least amount of credit.

No sir, I don't care to do more work when it's quicker for the artist to add a step while they're already scanning and cleaning up their lineart.

Doing a Photshop action to resize their pages makes much more sense for them while cleaning up/saving their files in the first place. If they then also rule their art boards correctly, it becomes even easier on them.

Btw, are you a writer or an artist?

[L Jamal]

Originally Posted by Thomas Mauer

Btw, are you a writer or an artist?

He's an artist.

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by ljamal

He's an artist.

Thanks Ljamal. And a writer as well.
A creative, if you allow me.

And, for the record, I never had problem about the size in of the
Artwork I’ve sent.
Always I ask previously in what size and format the work should be sent.
And always I will be open for doing reasonable adjustments and corrections
of the work I am producing.

And except in a couple of occasions, when I was asked to send the work
at 6.875 x 10.4375 size and that happened when I was sending my inked artwork.
In other different occasions I was told to do not so.
And to do that in a different ratio and format.
That was a request BY the project leaders.

Also, I have the Actions settled in my PhotoShop.
And for once, when sending my
Pencils at 6.875 x 10.4375 I was told to resent these pages in a different
size by the project manager because “that size” was very small for them.

I was trying to refer all of the above not including myself as
the starring of these facts, but by doing a brief of my experiences along
with some from fellow colleagues with whom I share ideas
And experiences throughout the years.

But apparently, for some people in here, it is very difficult to
understand things that are very simple, that happen every day
And are obvious for everybody.

They instead, like to twist everything what they are reading and blaming to everybody,
Everybody, except their project leader, (whomever he is) when receiving a work which came in a wrong format,

Instead of calling immediately their project manager.
And requesting the correction of the previous wrongdoing before to start working.
Or merely rejecting the project.
Or charging extra for doing the needed adjustments.

They rather like to blame everybody, pencilers, inkers and colorists.
Accusing all of them of negligence and non-professionalism.

Not one is doing their job right, except them.
How do you call this?